Kathleen Folbigg: 20 Years Innocent in Prison
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um her decision to uh go down the advocacy road um it was you know of course it was major you know uh and you know it’s um if anyone could have somebody like Tracy in my situation they should go find one because uh you know it’s she’s she was pivotal uh in getting a lot of the stuff done.
Um it’s been described in the past as you know she sort of created a scaffolding that everybody and and you know um and everybody else that jumped on that scaffolding to help out um and volunteer time and and money and expertise and all the rest without Trac Tracy you know building the scaffolding in the first place it may not have happened at all.
Um so yeah she’s you know pivotal as far as I’m concerned.
Um, and you know, we we both like to send the message that um, someone like Trace to do advocacy in such a big fashion like mine.
Um, there’s a lot of costs that happen and it’s not just monetary.
Uh, it’s emotional, it’s mental, it’s, you know, um, it can affect what you what path you take down in life.
It’s all, you know, there’s a humongous, you know, onflow and ripple effect that happens with it.
Um so uh for me it was such a gradual thing but I you know I I do recall saying to you are you sure you want to do this? Um you know and and quite often saying you know don’t um you know I would say during phone discussions um you know if there’s things that you wish to do for yourself please go do like you know sort of thing especially when we’re hitting lulls and nothing was happening and and we’re all just wondering what the hell are you doing? Um it was you know I always encouraged and just sort of said look if you got stuff that you want to do then please do you know I said you know and and she tried and did um you know I sort of thing I said but unfortunately to advocate for a case such as mine that’s so complicated and so huge um and it because it is your friend you you put 120% in um you know she suffered you know she she didn’t get the 120% back you know sort of thing I said because that’s the way the system is unfortunately.
Well, arguably she got her friend back and that’s probably more than enough payoff at the end of the day, right? >> I know.
Well, you know, sort of thing.
We It’s weird because we sort of like I’ve only been out what three 20 five, you know, technically uh two and a bit years or something now.
Um and we’re both, you know, she’s at one end of the state and I’m at the other.
I said, so we’re actually no longer sort of really near each other with, you know, sort of thing.
So, um, and you know, like life goes on, you know, and it’s, you know, it’s an unfortunate thing to say like she got her family life and her farm and her animals and I’ve got a different direction that’s heading.
Um, you know, new partner, you know, new home life, gone, went back home.
Um, trying to decide what I’m going to do with with my future as such.
Um, and so we try to stay in touch and be in touch as friends, you know, the thing I said and that that’s all you do.
That’s all you can do.
Um, but of course she knows that I’m always here for her if she needs me and I know that she’s always there.
I said, “So, uh, it’s a prick crow sort of thing.
” I said, “So, um, and I don’t think that’ll let it change.
I don’t care.
You know, we could be 80 and on a walk in frames and probably still doing it.
” Um, you know, I said, “So, you know, we often used to joke about that.
” Uh, so, um, as a friend, uh, the best, you know, I said, “You couldn’t ask for anything better.
” Um, and you know, we have ups and downs and and we can argue like a blammy when we’re not agreeing on something.
Uh, [gasps] so because you know, she she can be quite forthright and I’m very forthright.
Um, once I get going in a pot and you know Yeah.
>> You mentioned there that you moved back home and home for you was Newcastle.
>> What was that like for you to go back to a place that would have been so familiar 20 years ago and now is a strange new place? I I didn’t sort of look at it like a a strange new place.
Like I came home and and the the navigation of the basic outline of of Newcastle hasn’t really changed.
Um what I did discover was that there’s a roundabout every 5 seconds which takes [laughter] bit of getting used to.
>> It’s getting a bit new.
>> Train lines no longer exist.
Stations have disappeared and you know all those sorts of things.
Um >> uh shopping centers seem to have grown exponentially and take up whole city blocks.
I said, “So those sorts of things I had to get used to, but basic streets of where I used to hang when I was a kid or learned to drive or in my younger life are all still there.
” Um, so the basic layout is is is my hometown.
Um, so you know, um, to me it was also a I think I was just determined to go home.
Um, because it was to me like a finishing of a complete circle, you know.
Okay.
my my circle went one way and it got disrupted and I went off in all sorts of weird passes to where life sort of goes.
Uh totally uh not expecting it to end up where it ended up.
I said, but I was determined to make it end up back in Newcastle uh and say, I’m home now.
Uh and let’s get on with life and let’s go forward.
I think we are so intensely interested in what your life is looking like now because that transition for you like so much has changed in the time that you were incarcerated.
I mean technology has changed almost to a place where it would be unrecognizable if you were to drop someone into it 20 years after they’ve left it.
>> And you know people have changed, relationships with people have changed.
What’s the thing that you think you’ve struggled to come to terms with the most? We all presume it’s something like technology, but you’ve connected to us.
We use a program called Riverside.
You’re on your laptop.
You seem to be quite fine with technology, but what is the things that you’re finding the most difficult to navigate in this new world? >> Um, I just I I struggle a little bit with how much life uh becomes a a pressure for people these days, you Um, you know, you go back 20 odd years, I I feel like people were far more relaxed in how they were going about things, whereas everything now seems to be on fast forward, high speed.
Uh, people have to have, you know, 18 19 hours out of a day of a 24-hour period just to get anything done.
I said, which is which is, you know, sad for me because I’m just sort of like, oh gosh, you know, um, no such thing as your 9 to5 job anymore.
you know, I said it exists, but people go to work at 7:30 instead of at 9:00 and end up there until 7:30, 8, 9:00 before they’re finished, you know.
I said, so that sort of um the the amount of pressure that people are under to just to cope with the cost of living that seems to have skyrocketed and gone through the roof in 20 years, you know, I said, so that was a big eye opener for me.
>> Um, and you know, yes, technologies a little bit.
Yeah, I succeeded in doing this, but as I said, I was here for half an hour pressing buttons to make sure that I could.
And who knows what I’ve affected somewhere else along the line by [laughter] doing it, you know.
So, I’ll probably find I’ve lost one of my own [laughter] programs somewhere along the way, you know.
Um, and the whole, you know, I I find it quite disconcerting that there is a lack of communication, conversation, and people just don’t look up anymore.
it’s all this, you know, uh, and I don’t know how many times I’ve, you know, pedestrians have just gone and marched out the middle of the road and I’ve had to go, whoa, because they have not even looked up to see if they were going to get hit by a car.
Um, so I do I do find that a little disconcerting.
>> Have you succumbed to the screen yourself though, Kathleen? Like >> really hard to at certain time of the night it’s off and I don’t look again.
Uh, and I have a bad habit of just leaving it somewhere and forgetting to bring it with me.
Yeah.
Uh because I’m not, you know, I can take the dog for a walk a good 20 minutes and go, “Oh, left the phone at home.
Too bad everything happens to me because I don’t have my phone.
” >> We could all learn a thing or two from you, I tell you.
[laughter] >> So, yeah, it takes a bit of getting used to, you know, I Facebook I only do as in, you know, I’ve got some friends on there, a few, and that’s it.
I don’t sort of do anything else.
Um, Google’s my friend on the laptop, I must say.
I find out a lot of interesting stuff, you know, so probably more than I need to know.
>> Have you Googled yourself? Uh [laughter] I have occasionally had a look and just been shocked at how much stuff’s actually up there.
Um and to realize and to see that it’s even on YouTube of all places, I’m just sort of like, oh my goodness, you know.
Um but you know, it it is what it is.
And uh you know, I made the decision to open up and give some information because everyone seemed to be just so wanting to know.
Um that I thought, you know, there’s a few bubbles that needed bursting.
uh and some correct information that needed to come out.
So that was one of the reasons why I said yes.
Okay.
Uh and decided to swallow the fear and just start doing some interviews and and and go for it.
So, >> can you take us back to the day you were actually released from prison because we’d heard rumblings via the New South Wales Supreme Court that potentially something might be happening and then it all happened so very quickly and then all of a sudden you were just out and we were all scrambling cuz we’re like we weren’t expecting this to happen right now.
So, there’s us journalists frantically typing away on our keyboards to let everyone know that Kathleen was out.
But what was that experience like for you on that day? Did you know something was coming? Was there any inkling that you were going to be released that day? What did that day look like for you? >> Well, we were all just hoping that that day was going to roll around.
We didn’t think it would take as long as it did.
>> Uh after um you know, his honorable Ba’is put down his his basic finding saying you know uh nothing to see here.
Not sure why she’s still there.
Um yeah there you know there was a good few months of still wandering around working and having to live the J life uh with staff even saying why are you still here and I was none of us knowing.
Um so it was sort of like just treading water waiting to see you know were they going to do the right thing and and and give the pardon and release or what what were they going to do or were we going to have to keep fighting and scrambling to sort of um get someone to say something.
Um, so even though we we wanted it to happen and we sort of knew it was going to eventually, it was almost like wet fish in the face because it was all very sudden, you know, unjust.
Um, you know, it was just so a bit of a shock.
And that particular day, I was just working in jail like normal.
Uh, and sent upstairs to see the boss thinking I’m in trouble for something.
Uh, and then get told, “By the way, you’ve been pardoned.
We’re releasing you right now.
Off you go.
Get in that car.
You’re gone.
Uh, so it was all just such a such a rush.
>> Did you think for a second like someone’s taking a piss here? >> Like, is there ever a minute? >> Yes.
Yes, for sure.
Cuz I I I think I delayed in actually answering him.
And then I actually swore at the poor man.
I’m pretty sure.
Pretty much saying, “You got to be kidding me.
” I said, “Because it was all just a bit too sudden and a bit too Yeah.
Um, you know, and I’m sure when you ask Tracy about it, she’ll be able to tell you the horrendous stories she had because it was also she wasn’t told.
No one was told in advance and not even my legal team was told, >> right? So, it was like just get in the car, everyone go.
>> It was literally literally get in the car.
Um, you know, I said, so to be in borrowed clothes that weren’t even mine and a beautiful outfit, you know, that had been chosen, didn’t get to be worn and, you know, and all sorts of stuff.
I said it was all very um you know shots of me getting out of a van holding a pair of shoes that I probably should have had on my feet but weren’t even thinking about it.
Um and yes and later going why am I hanging on to my shoes you know you know it’s all it was all just very very fast.
Yeah.
>> Well, I’d love to get an understanding from you about what jail life was actually like for you because I think the thing that strikes me the most, I mean, the trauma that you’ve experienced going into prison aside, you’re still a very young woman when you go to prison.
And you still haven’t really grown into the person that you’re going to be yet.
You still have a lot of life experience to be had in order to, you know, become who you’re going to become.
And then you go into a a prison system where people who are accused of crimes like you had been are considered amongst the worst of the worst, right? So they have to put you in solitary confinement.
So how do you even grow as a human being when you’re still that young with so much growing to do when there’s no one around you to grow with? >> That’s a very good question.
Um I I sort of think growing occurred but because of the situation and environment that I’m in um I would say it was it you know the only thing it really did was cement my strength uh cement the stoism uh cement the stubbornness [laughter] uh and you know and cement um you know the word resilience has been used and all those sorts of words.
So that sort of environment um yes it it helps cement and strengthen those sort of qualities.
Whether I would have gone and had all those had not been in prison who can say I’ve always been a bit stubborn and had a bit of a strength thing about me.
I said but I don’t think it would have developed into such the you know uh giant shoulders and major backbone that I ended up with.
I said it would have been a more sedate version.
I’m sure um it you know I always say to people okay I was you know 34 35 when I went in so there was a life had before that and I tended to um always hang on to that and say okay it’s not a case of going in at 18 and having no life whatsoever and not even knowing what you’re doing or why um at 35 you know my basic life skills personality was set the whole lot and all that sort of stuff I said so I used to always uh go back and keep saying to people, hang on a minute, I was a fully grown adult by the time I come in here.
Um and I had to try to keep uh standard values and things that I the core of myself I had to keep strong uh and and remind myself to try and stay true to that core of who I thought I was as much as possible.
Um it can be made tough and very hard to do so when you’re in an environment like that.
Um, and I had many a time where I slid behavior-wise and was just a basic naughty girl.
Uh, you know, I said, “So, but it was all in defense of uh trying to survive and and and kept telling myself, you know, um, even if all the legal stuff doesn’t work, 2028, I’m out whether these people like it or not.
So, I have to suck it up and and do what I need to do.
” Uh, so that’s how I dealt with it.
But everyone’s an individual and everyone deals with things way differently, you know.
Um, I’ve had a lot of women say to me, you know, if I had lost one, I would have fallen apart.
You’ve lost four and you’ve been in prison for it.
How have you coped? My answer to that is, I believe that everybody has a strength in there, and when they’re forced to find it, it’s there.
Um, some people have struggle and don’t find it, others find it, some people, you know, can do it reasonably easily, others can’t, and others really fight.
Well, I I didn’t I wouldn’t say that I did it easily.
Um, but I I just think it could have something to do with, you know, the beginnings of my life and how tough the beginning of my life was.
I sort of already had a bit of a backbone and that helped me cope and survive with what I had to go through for those 20 years.
That’s the thing is I don’t think a lot of people realize that your story starts so much earlier than the birth of your first child because you do, you know, find out somewhat older child that your mother is actually was murdered by your father and you’re then, you know, handed off to relatives who then make you wards at the state and you’ve had to sort of fight >> pretty much tooth and nail from the very beginning of your life.
Do you think that that might have added to that resilience? Does because I mean that would have broken a lot of people emotionally if not psychologically.
>> I I’m a firm believer for me that it did.
You know, I whether you know I’ve heard thirdirhand stories of me at 18 months old or two years old uh being quite independent and just deciding I’m going to do this or do that.
uh and um even at three or four not tolerating bullies or people who were picking on other people.
I said so it was already there >> um >> and developed you know and sort of semi-state that way but developed uh and evolved being in a tough situation and a tough environment like prison you know I said so um you know I it’s most a lot of my friends that I’ve met along the way uh we met you know a couple of them I met because I was actually in defense of them against somebody you know, I sort of said, “That’s how we’ve connected and that’s how we’ve met.
” >> Um, and you know, I’ve got a friend of mine who’s over 6’2 and she was being bullied in high school and I didn’t have a bar of that.
I said, “So, we we we connected, you know, sort of thing.
” I said, “Which quite ironic that I’m just this little 5’5, you know, telling people ra you know, you know, sort of thing.
Pick on someone else, you know.
” Um, so it was already there, you know, I already had it as a backbone.
um you know third-hand stories of me at 18 months old wandering around because you know my mother for all intents and purposes I didn’t you know I can honestly sit here and say I don’t remember I don’t recall I couldn’t tell you what she looked like other than a picture that I’ve seen um don’t really know much or anything about her um I have heard that she was you know very free-spirited and just did you know as she pleased uh and that she was kind-hearted and whatever else but unfortunately for me by the time she had me she had developed a bit of a drinking and a gambling problem.
So, not the same human being at all.
Um, and third-hand stories of me just wandering around pretty much taking care of myself in a singlet and nappy at 18 months old.
What does that say? You know, I think I’d already started to, >> you know, uh, try to do the best I could even at that age.
I said, so, um, yeah, I think it’s sort of I think what happens to you in your life trauma wise or whatever, um, it can mold you into who you are.
Uh, I guess it depends on how much, you know, I’ve been lucky.
I’ve had quite a bit of mental health help uh for coping and and especially whilst I was inside and now that I’m out I you know it’ll be an eternal thing.
Some people don’t get that >> to be able to help them.
Uh you know I said so they may suffer you know far more than what I’m I’m suffering.
Um but I’m also very I am mindful of you know the fact that my situation and all the people who helped me with it uh especially my close friends and staff they they suffered mentally and and you know and all that along the way as well you know I said so there was as I said there was a ripple effect to you know if you want to stand beside me or help me out there was a ripple effect that you could be affected by it.
Uh, and as upsetting as that was to me, um, you know, at the time I was dealing with, uh, trying to cope and and mentally sustain myself as well, I said.
So, um, but yeah, I think, you know, whatever your core person is, that’s that’s who you are.
Yeah.
Thank >> I’m sitting here thinking as you’re telling me these stories of how resilient you are about the moment that arrives in this conversation where we have to talk about the deaths of your children.
>> Yeah.
>> It’s a really awful thing to talk about.
It is.
I mean I have a kid I now can like when your story broke I wasn’t a mom.
So I looked at your story very differently than the way I do now.
Now that I do have a child and it changes you.
Having a baby physically fundamentally changes who you are.
You become a mom.
It’s a second life for you.
And so talking to another mom about the death of her babies, it is such a tricky thing to bring up.
I want to know how you feel about talking about your children when they have been such a focus of your entire existence from becoming a mom where they do become your entire existence to everything that then you’ve gone through in losing them one after the other and having to recover from the trauma of those in still wanting to become a mom and becoming pregnant again and and being able to process that into a place where you can be okay with being pregnant and having another baby and not, you know, pass away from anxiety yourself.
How do you feel about talking about your babies with people like me? We are strangers and yet this is a conversation you’re going to keep having with people until, you know, maybe forever.
>> Um, you know, well, I had I had to accept the fact that that that’s who I’m known as.
You know, I’m known as the poor woman that lost four children, went to prison for it, managed to win the case, and then get back out.
That’s that’s that’s who I’m known as.
>> That’s the long story short.
Yes.
>> Yeah.
Um uh discussing and talking about my children.
I I used to be quite coveted of of memories.
I tended not to share uh because um for me I don’t have the big banking vault of memories in regards to them.
I have a select few.
Um, the trauma of losing them.
Uh, for me, it’s hard to describe because I sometimes still use it if I’m in a traumatic situation that I’m I don’t think I’m handling very well.
Uh, I have what I they call a it’s almost like a deflective shield that sort of just comes up.
Um I almost like I step outside myself and I just don’t tend to um I may be answering you but but it’s very monotone.
I can go a little monotone uh and not uh because it blocks me from feeling uh too much as such.
Um, I try not to do that these days because in as far as I’m concerned, you know, um, for everything that I went through, my children existed.
Uh, and um, I I would never ever deny that they did, you know, I said, so uh, it’s it’s a it’s a rough edge knife edge that I sort of run on when I’m when I’m talking about the kids.
Um, it’s the decision to keep having them.
you know, there were times when, you know, I decided no, I wasn’t going to like after Sarah when I lost my third one.
You know, I I went in and discussed having my tubes tied because I just wasn’t even going to go there.
>> Um, but considering I wasn’t, you know, either 30 or something quite yet or just over.
Doctors said to me, “We can’t.
You’re too young, you and I got denied, you know, pretty much being able to do it because they were concerned I was doing it for an emotional reason, not a, >> you know, and that made no sense to me because I’m sitting there saying to the doctor, “How am I supposed to differentiate from an emotional reason as to why I don’t, you know, sort of thing.
” But, you know, uh there was a few years that went between, uh, Sarah and then deciding to go with Laura.
Um but you know the stress mass stress of worrying constantly uh and ended up being quite paranoid when it came whence Laura came around.
Um that’s I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
I said because it was you know I’m not going to say it was a terrible decision because it wasn’t.
You know I met Laura and she was beautiful and wonderful and a joy of my life.
Um so it wasn’t a bad decision as far as I was concerned in the end.
Um but yeah to make the decision that was quite a wrecking process to go through.
Uh and of course you know I had a you know a husband at the time to be considering.
Um and you know when you go down these roads I think what I sort of lacked in in my relationship with Craig was conversation.
We rarely ever actually really truly spoke about stuff.
Uh and I think that’s vitally important.
You really need to communicate.
So for anyone else that was going through something like mine who who’s having a trying to decide whether they’re going to have another child or not um I would always be saying well make sure you have those conversations and you make them deep, you take them mean and you make them last and you really make sure you know sort of thing.
Um you know so because I I you know I I have said to friends in the past sometimes that you know if Kale of my very first one had survived uh I may not have had the other three.
I might have just been quite happy enough to have been a single parent you know single child household.
>> Yeah.
>> Um but that’s not how fate not path and not not where we went.
Uh so yeah, but um trauma for me is like, you know, everyone always says you you’ve suffered so much trauma.
Why are you even still standing? Why you’re not rocking in a corner somewhere? Um and and my answer to that is because I guess everyone’s individual on how they process these things, you know.
I said, so um everyone says, “Oh, you’ve never had the chance to grieve.
” And I’m like, “Well, technically that’s wrong.
” you know, I I did actually go to all four funerals and you go through the grieving process by the time you’re getting around to a funeral.
Um, you know, you’ve got the weeks and weeks after a funeral.
Uh, that is, uh, you know, that are the the most depressing parts of your life that you’re ever going to come across.
>> Um, but eventually everyone around you, you know, moves on.
I said, you can’t keep, you know, staying in that grief mode.
It’s not healthy.
you’ve got to try and attempt to get on with your life in some fashion and decide which direction you want to take it in.
Um, and that’s exactly what I did.
I kept moving forward.
Um, others didn’t.
And I, you know, I don’t think my ex-husband moved forward.
I think he was always lagging behind a little.
Uh, and I think in the end I just moved forward a bit too far and and you know, we ended up separating.
Yeah.
So, um, I still do that now.
Moving forward is my sole focus.
There’s no dwelling on past too much.
There’s no lamenting it.
There’s no you can’t change the past.
Um I I try really hard not to have any negativity or toxic thoughts about the past, you know.
Um and or people that have offended or hurt or betrayed or or done whatever.
I try very hard to just sort of go, okay, well, those decisions have been made.
That’s the path they’ve chosen.
This is the path I’m taking.
and and and we just have to go forward from there.
So >> does that extend that sort of moving forward and and not worrying too much about the past is extended to police and how investigators handled your case because when you really >> don’t get me wrong if when I get police pulling up next to us in the car I could be a tad nervous >> really.
I mean that happens to all of us but to you especially.
>> Yes.
It’s an automatic thing.
Um, you know, there’s a there’s a bit of a funny story.
When I first got my license and I had to be pulled over for my very first breath test, uh, you know, the window came down and I was so nervous that I think I was fumbling and stuttering a little.
So, he probably thought something wrong with this lady because she’s not reacting, you know.
Um, you know, and I had to find my license and give it to him.
Uh, and once I’ve given it to him, uh, he’s looked at it.
Uh, and I think he’s then looked at me, uh, and then he’s just gone, “Thanks very much.
Here you can go.
” [laughter] So, I don’t know.
Don’t know to this day.
>> So, your infamy might have worked in your favor in that moment.
>> Worked in my favor.
I don’t know whether he recognized the picture and just went, “Oh, jeez.
” You know, just let this one go.
Or whether it’s it, you know, he was just being kind or whether it was, you know, >> I blew in the thing and blew nothing.
I said, “So, it was all a case of, you know, >> yeah, >> standard thing.
” Um, but yeah, it’s, you know, I don’t think it’s necessarily police for me that I might have a bit of a negative reaction to, but if you start talking to me about detectives and some of their tactics, well, then that’s a different >> one.
When I when I read into how especially how they confronted your ex-husband Craig, >> they really when you look at >> the conversations that were had, >> it feels very leading like they led him into making a decision.
And then that sort of tarnishes your relationship with him from that point on because he spends the rest of his time believing that you are guilty and that there is no way that it could possibly be otherwise.
And the way that they’ve treated you in that process too is I mean on reflection there are a lot of decisions that were made that that you know the conversations that were had with you a grieving young mother should not have happened in the way that they did.
So how do you how do you feel about those detectives and the way they handled your case? I it’s a hard call because you know as far as I’m concerned police and detectives are needed in our society.
We can’t do without them.
Um but of course in any major organizations I’m sure you have good, bad and average.
You know I said so it’s just how it rolls.
Um yes some of the the tactics and things that we used to make sure that a case was built for me.
Um, you know, I sit here now and go, “Okay, you take it right back to even when he was first, you know, he first approached the DPP about my matter and was pretty much told, you’re going to need more.
There’s not enough here, you know.
” I said, “So, he on his own from what we can gather, just kept going.
” I said, “So, it was it was sort of like, okay, you were just told there’s not enough here, but you still got enough after me anyway.
That’s um that’s where you know I can sit and go and shake my head and sort just sort of go would that happen today? I’m not sure you know um I’d hope that hopefully some some lessons were sort of learned here um especially on how you treat um grieving people.
I said because it’s sort of like to to want to speak to a grieving person at a hospital straight up when their brain’s not even connected uh because they’re growing traumatically through so much staff.
Um I’m not sure that’s a good thing to do.
I said because yeah that you know things are said or not said or inferences made and all sorts of things.
Um, but to build a case on that, I I I do find that a little on the offensive side.
And it’s just sort of like, you know, that I hope you learned your lesson.
Don’t do that again.
You know, I said cuz it’s, you know, it’s not a good thing to do.
Um, you know, he’s I sort of kept telling myself he had a job to do.
Um, and he certainly went and did it.
I said, so I can’t, you know, I can’t really say that much more about it.
I’m not going to say I hate the man because I don’t personally know him enough to say you hate him.
you don’t hate someone that you don’t know, you know.
>> Um, >> but how do you feel about the use of say your diaries as evidence? Because, >> uh, that, as far as I concerned, was offensive.
Uh, and, um, >> we’ve all written things in our diaries in the moment that make no sense or that make sense at the time like >> could be taken in any which way depending on your mental health that day, right? >> Absolutely.
And uh I don’t know how many people especially women uh who’s you know the majority if you look at percentages it’s usually women that write in these sorts of things.
Um so it’s it’s to me to use something like that uh and only pluck out certain words and then weaponize was was uh to me a disgusting thing to do.
And we all agreed on that.
uh it didn’t matter who we spoke to or you know but how you can get that point across in a legal world is a total different you know sort of thing you know my my defenses team’s uh tactic was to simply say uh nothing to see here don’t know why you’re using them nothing to see here well that wasn’t good enough and I got done for them anyway um and they were used >> in a specific way to make sure that a case was bolstered um and that the case was pretty much built up around them.
I said, “So, um, for all intents and purposes, I didn’t really have hope.
I was going down whether I liked it or not because of the sign of the times, uh, the fact that Meadow Law still existed and was threading through everything even way back then.
” Um, didn’t really have hope actually.
I said, “So, >> so you really aware of that and you knew that in that time when you were facing court? Were you aware of that?” >> Not then.
No, no, probably not back then.
Um, I was always hopeful, you know, but I was fairly uh ignorant, naive, and I kept thinking that the system would listen to me at some point and get it right, you know.
I said, “So, to eventually find out and land you, you land in prison blinking going, well, that didn’t work.
I don’t know what’s going on there.
” Um, but it’s too late by then, you know.
I said, “So, you know, precedents have been set, legal arguments have been done.
” You know, I said, “You start to become history when it comes to, you know, students looking up things and doing and all that sort of stuff.
” Um, so it it’s a tough it’s it’s it’s literally a case of, you know, how do you defend your random thoughts that come out of your head that you were silly enough to stick on a bit of paper and then someone goes and reads them and every individual has a different way of interpreting something they might read, >> you know? I said, so uh, and I can still do it now.
something might flash up on the news and I’ll read it and go, “Oh, wow.
That means blah blah blah.
” And yet my partner can be sitting next to me and go, “I didn’t read that.
I think that reads blah blah blah.
” And I’m like, “It’s a prime example, you know.
” Um, >> and you know, and sometimes I can still write stuff even today and someone will read it uh and then not really understand where it’s come from and take it in a totally different way.
Uh, so um it’s an eternal argument really.
It’s an eternal eternal thing that just keeps going.
So you said then like you land in prison wideeyed and blinking and wondering why the hell you ended up here.
>> Like I mentioned before, you had to go into solitary confinement because people who are accused of killing children are often targeted by other inmates.
How because that goes for a couple years, but how do you then transition into the general population? And how do you protect yourself from being a target at that point? Like I imagine you didn’t have too many handtohand combat skills going into prison at that time as a 30 something year old woman.
Like how do you defend yourself? >> Um for me personally I basically it was almost like I put up the shield of bravado.
Uh and because I knew in my heart that they all got it wrong and I wasn’t supposed to be there.
Uh it it very quickly dawned on me though that I couldn’t keep saying that because when you’re in there in a situation and you’re in a prison for what you’re in there for like mine, it doesn’t matter how much you protest as far as they’re concerned.
The court stuck you there so you did it.
I said so you don’t it’s no point in you jumping up and down saying but I didn’t you know blah blah blah.
Um so I learned to go quiet on that side of things.
>> So for me it was more of a I I think I drew down on the backbone that I already sort of semi had.
Uh, and there was a lot of bravado pretty much going on.
Um, and the ability sometimes to talk uh, and and and eventually talk someone down.
If I thought that they weren’t actually seriously wanting to hurt me, that they just were yelling at me and screaming and blustering and carrying on.
Um, there was quite a percentage of times where I could say some stuff that just made them stop and blink.
uh and they would go still swear at me, but they would walk away just shaking heads instead of continuing to abuse me.
Um I also did the the uh the thing of you know pass someone they might be negative and giving you glare eye every time they look at you but I used to walk past going hey how you going every time and sooner or later you catch them out and they go >> you kill them with kindness in the end >> you know uh you know sort of things.
So, um, it probably took, I’d say within about 5 years, people the most of the women had realized, uh, she’s here to stay.
We can’t get rid of her.
Um, and the standard argument I was always saying was, you know, you say I don’t belong in here.
Where would you like us be to go? >> You provide me with, you know, this is where I am.
Um, we’re all wearing the same green tracksuit.
We all bleed red blood.
If anything happens to us, I, you know, I said, we’re all female here.
Um, and so therefore, in that respect, no matter what anybody does, we should be banding together a little bit, not continually fighting and carrying on with each other.
So I tried to use logic as much as possible when it came to to talking.
But of course, you get some women in there who who just don’t hear logic.
They’re totally illogical.
So in in that respect um I think it was literally a case of defending myself by having so much backbone and bravado meant that they were a little unsure how I would react if they took me on.
I said so that that gray area of whether I was going to fight with them or not 90% of the time was enough for people to go year we’ll just leave that one.
um you know so but it’s it’s um everybody deals with as I said you know I had so many women you know there was about when I was in there the number grew up to about 10 of us women who were in for similar sorts of things and every one of us was different on how we chose to handle other inmates you know so we were never really in main population but we did end up in wings that were 30 to 40 women strong I said so it’s still you know you’re still battling to survived the so-called hierarchy of prison, you know, I said.
So, >> where would you set in the hierarchy? >> Ah, um, I was never queen bee, put it that way.
Uh, but I was never down the bottom either.
So, um, it was, you know, I I simply just chose to have my head down, uh, stay out of other people’s business, which is what you do.
Um, and worked as much as possible.
Uh, and I think once staff figure out that you’re a hard worker and they can get things get you to do stuff and then they can rely on you to do it, uh, you you spend far less time uh, hanging around a whole lot of women who are gossiping and just becoming negative in general.
Um I used to always try to align myself with people who would joke and laugh and be merry rather than those who were too focused on being victims.
Uh and you know crying and lamenting that why they were there.
Uh and uh you know it was people are always surprised when you say you would laugh while you’re in prison but there are some absolutely cracker humorous things that can happen in a prison.
Uh and if you don’t have a sense of humor um you know what are you supposed to do? I do have a rather dark sense of humor, so it’s not a, you know, um, but you know, the prisoners can, you know, make light of any situation if it helps them cope with why they’re there.
>> Do you then leave all that behind, Kathleen? Like, do you step away from prison? These are people you’ve spent decades with and staff that you would have interacted with every single day.
Do you just leave all that behind when you leave prison or do you stay in contact with people? I’ve got a handful of of um dear friends that I made whilst I was inside.
Um and because I was extremely picky and choosy about who I made friends with and I used to say that I would make friendly acquaintances and friendlies, never friends, >> but occasionally one would sneak in that I would have more more relatable with.
Um so, you know, probably one, two, three, I probably got about four if that.
Um and one lady that is still inside that I you know she rings and we have a chat and um and I like to hear that she’s doing well uh and that you know her plans for getting out uh which turned out to be if id stayed in there we both would have been going for parole in 2028 6 months apart I said so um you know she’s still doing very well and I know she’s going to succeed when she gets out you know I said so but um they are people who who are capable turning things around uh and not drowning in the seriousness and and and the traumatic side of being in prison.
So, >> so you’ve mentioned a few times that moving forward is has been a focus for pretty much your entire life and has helped you remain resilient in times rather than looking back and wallowing in self-pity or in grief.
So, where does forward look like for you? because you and Tracy have written a book together which you have been touring around the place and really telling your story and advocating for women who find themselves in this situation.
Uh which interestingly at the time when you were before the courts it was like unheard of that four children could all you know die from SIDS from the same family and it’s you know been revealed over time that that is in fact not the case and that it has happened to other families and so your advocacy is now making sure that people understand your story and how it can you know be implied to many others.
>> Is that where future Kathleen lives in the advocacy space? Does she have other dreams that we’re looking forward to? >> I call um I I don’t mind doing things like this.
Um I don’t mind if women wish to speak and talk about um you know how you cope with with with things like this.
Um I’m a firm believer that uh strength is an inward thing.
I said you everybody has it.
It’s there.
You just have to tap and find it.
Um, so you know, it’s doing this sort of thing.
I thought I would be quite shy and reserved and inward with it and not be able to do it, but it it it seems I you know, I’m doing quite fine.
Um, the book for me was a very cathartic a thing to do.
Uh, and I tapped into um, you know, I wrote journals most of my life, so I think I tapped into that ability to just write stuff.
Um, and you know with help from uh editors and everything else that you know the crew that we did have.
>> Sorry to interrupt but you’re not concerned that anyone’s going to look at these journals at some stage and misinterpret them.
>> No.
Yeah.
Um, you know, so don’t get me wrong, you never get me writing in another one.
Uh, [laughter] but I writing seems to be something I enjoy doing and it’s a slow whether it’s a flare or something I’ve got, who knows? um the future for me, you know, I might travel to go down that path again and just see if I can do something, you know, and keep writing in such a fashion.
um and or uh yes doing talks around the place and and encouraging women that I think my message is is basically um whatever you’re going through traumatic or not uh if you’ve got a group of friends that are helping to hold you up and you’ve got the scaffolding around you survive uh and you can come out the other side.
Uh and even for those who don’t have that, there are so many organizations and that out there these days that can help you through that sort of stuff.
Um I think my message just is there is life after.
Um and you just have to make the decision that you want it.
I said so that’s my my message.
Um I’m pretty an ordinary girl.
I don’t, you know, I’m I’m not, you know, planning.
I’m, you know, going.
People say, “Oh, how would you like to go bungee jumping, skydiving, and doing all these things?” And I’m shaking my head going, “I don’t need to spend too many years in prison to go jumping out of a plane and kill myself.
It’s just not, [laughter] you know, >> I have life left to live now.
I’m not put at risk.
” Right.
>> That’s right.
You know, I said, “So, you know, I enjoy simpler things, you know, like walking the dog, you know, or just sitting on the lounge with her and patting is is is a glorious thing for me.
Staring out a window watching life go by.
My best thing ever.
I’m a quite a people person watcher and I love to, you know, do that sort of thing.
Um, simple things like walks, sunrises, sunsets.
I’m still enjoying all of those things.
Um, good food, enjoying a little bit too much, unfortunately.
Uh, but, you know, it’s sort of like, you know, um, you know, so it’s it’s it’s more simple for me.
I I enjoy the, you know, the simpler things in life.
uh and I’m would be quite happy to spend the next 30 years if I’m lucky to do that, you know.
Um if I go off on the other paths and I write and I talk and I do these sorts of things, podcasts and whatever, um to me they’re an added bonus.
You know, you if I’m helping anybody along the way, um that’s great, too.
Yeah, I I don’t mind doing that.
um you know there we still got you in a whole you know there are other people that are going to tackle the whole legal reform in an attempt to try to you know reform our system a little because it does unfortunately need it.
Um we all everyone who’s been in to do with my case believes that you know a CCRC a criminal case review commission is needed.
Um and that uh that would be a fairer way to do things.
Uh, you know, I said we, you know, I believe that, you know, if there had been that sort of committee um or commission available at the time when my stuff all hit the fan, so to speak, uh, I may not have ended up in prison for as long as I was in there.
you know, could have been looked at, reviewed, uh, you know, taken on board.
Um, and, you know, but I we we just sort of think, you know, there was an awful lot of in my case particular, an awful lot of not listening going on because the decision had been made, the the path chosen, and we had so much trouble uh, with the same information.
Once you know once you get denied appeals and you get and and you’re on a trial you get found guilty it’s so hard to get the system to look or hear or see anything else and every time you’re in front of a judge um they’re going off the same information all the time and it’s very difficult to get them to look sideways in any way um to go by the by the time I’d gone to Ba’ist you were looking at you know I think it was nearly 18 old judges I’d sat in front of in 20 years but he was the first semi-progressive one that went, “Okay, let’s have a listen and see what’s going on.
” >> You know, I said, “So, it’s just unfortunate.
It took 20 years to get there.
” >> So, um, reform needs doing.
Um, I can’t see myself being a big forefront when it comes to the the reform side.
I’ve always said I’m happy to be rolled out if my face case and me speaking helps in that manner.
Um, but I’m not likely to be up parliament steps with a big placard and you know and knocking on doors and saying you need to change something.
Um, because I think that it needs to come from inside the system.
The in the system needs to change.
So that’s where it needs to come from.
Just finally, Kathleen, I want to understand from you how you how you feel that place in your heart of mom, >> you know, with Caleb making you a mom and then, you know, Patrick and Sarah and Laura all adding to that and then your ability to become a mom again is cut off completely.
You have that option is taken away from you as you’re sent to prison.
How do you feel that place in your heart? because you are a mother.
How do you then express that now that you’re a free woman again? >> I I I I will always say I’m mom.
I simply say I’m a childless mom, you know, sort of thing.
So, as cruel as that sounds, that is what I am.
Um I can still walk down the street uh and spot, especially little toddlers will make me smile no end.
Uh, and especially when they just, you know, there was a little kid down the street uh, not long ago at the shopping center I was at, uh, had ran away a bit from his parents.
His parents didn’t even really realize cuz they were busy doing something.
Uh, he’s kicking things around.
He’s doing whatever he wanted to.
And I just simply smiled, looked at him, and said, “That’ll be that age again where you just don’t care.
You’re just doing your own thing.
” You know, um, and then parents of course went, “Oh, sort of thing.
” So, um, sometimes, you know, I’ve been to, uh, dinners and things with friends and and some of them have bought had little ones there, grandchildren, of course.
Um, at the time and the night, I’m fine with it and I can relate and do whatever, but I do suffer the next day with the depression hit.
I said, so it’s a it’s a response that’s just automatic.
I tend to want to not really go out or not see anyone.
Uh, and I just need that time to go, you know, as pleasant as that was, that hurt, you know, I said.
So I can still have quite painful moments with it all.
Um, and you know, Mother’s Day I’m not a fan of because I don’t get to celebrate it like everybody else.
Uh, so I tend to steer clear of it.
Um, you know, I said, so there’s just little things like that, you know.
And I said, “So, um, I always say I’m a mom, you know, and everyone else will say, you know, you’re a mom, Kathy.
That’s all there is to it.
” I said, “Yes, but unfortunately, I’m I’m in the relegated unfortunate club of being a child loss mom.
” I said, “So, uh, there’s it’s a pain there that’ll be there forever.
It’s never going to go away.
” Um, people say time heals.
I said, “I don’t believe that.
I think time lessens, not necessarily heals.
” you know because you know if Caleb would be you know gosh nearly 36 you know he said if he’d been around he would have been about 36 now you know I said so all of my children would have been grown adults moved on and I possibly could have been a grandmother by now um you know I said so little things like that you know I sort of go that that’s a bit painful um but I used to live vicariously through everybody else’s children um especially when I was inside um you know Tracy’s son Presley who I adore he grew up in front of me I never actually met him until I was released that day, you know.
I said, “So, you know, um, and my other friend’s children, too, you know, I’ve heard about them, heard about all their exploits, but yeah, it’s very different, you know.
Um, so it’s it’s I don’t uh well, I people probably don’t know this, but I’ve not had a child in my arms since I said so that that I think the first day I do and someone hands me a baby and says, “Can you just watch this?” Oh, yeah.
I’ll be like, um, I’m not sure how that will go.
