Breaking the Cycle: How One Man Escaped a Life of Violence

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>> Let’s go back to the start.

You were born in 1983 >> into quite a violent situation from the start.

>> Can you tell us about your early childhood, what that looked like? >> Yeah.

Yeah, not a problem.

So, yeah, I was born in 1983.

My mom was um I always say 15 when she had me, but do the maths properly.

I think she was 16.

Not not that it matters too much, but um mom came from a really dysfunctional family.

Her dad passed away when she was little.

So, she grew up with um her mom and and two younger sisters.

So, she was not only in the position of caring for her mom, but also for her younger sisters as well.

Her mom was quite unwell.

Um so, when she came home and said that she was pregnant, that news wasn’t received well.

Um in fact the her mom um tried tried to make my mom misaryry.

So that was probably my earliest exposure to violence um in utero.

After that mom and I moved out and probably around the age of one or two um you know I guess I always like to when I’m trying to relay this story to people that maybe they don’t understand talk about learning violence as a first language.

And that’s probably where it escalated even further.

Um my mom met her partner um at the time when I was one or two and if he had had the benefit of Google or social media things like that back then would have been able to research him and find out that he was pretty violent or quite violent himself.

So he came on the scene really quickly moved in with mom and I really quickly.

Um now my mom had had a really tough life herself.

So the first time she was shown any love um based on her you know attachment needs just sort of blossomed to that and opened up to having although this man was showing love or you know masquerading as love which was really violent controlling behavior.

He moved in with us really quickly and and abuse um I guess skyrocketed from verbal abuse to physical abuse and then to what was you know really degrading and probably the hardest thing for mom was um sexual abuse um really violent rapes uh really regular um you know when you when that was interspersed with the the verbal and physical abuse it was like living in a in a war zone almost it’s like looking for landmines all the time um so probably by the age of about three or before I guess I became an expert at body language and reading people and you you know I could tell by the way that he um would put a cup down or shut a door or you know pick something up whether there was an explosion about to come.

It’s like a thunderstorm coming in on the horizon.

And you know often people would say to my mom um you know your son’s so well mannered and he’s so so polite and you know you’ve obviously raised him really well when I was little and I was really terrified to to make a noise.

noise met you were seen and met you in the firing line as well.

So during that time I was getting hurt a lot and you I was hurt through what I saw as well but um you know was being physically hurt a lot as a as a toddler as well and you seeing some really brutal stuff that really shaped that idea for me that not only violence is a first language but violence was everywhere and I guess I thought that’s what men did as well because that’s all I’d seen.

He was in your life till you were around five if I’m right.

I mean a four, fiveyear-old has memories, but do you what is your first memories of the violence? Because you were one, two, three when this was happening.

>> Yeah.

So my first memories of the violence and I guess they come as I’ve gone through therapy myself over the years.

uh I’ve opened up more of those probably repressed memories, you know, and um >> it was my earliest memories were of violent suggestions in the sense of there was always things laying around like guns and knives and and things like that and you know they always been sort of waved around and brandished and >> in a real threatening like a menacing manner.

Um, one of my earliest memories of violence was mom was um looking after uh two uh kids.

One was the same age as me were probably both three and and the other little boy’s little sister was uh only about 6 weeks old and mom was looking after both of these kids as well.

And during that time uh then my mom had gone to the church to try and get some help.

She was desperate for some help.

So she joined a church and one of the ladies from the church came around to the house to try and help her.

And I could see him um watching mom through the window and getting it more and more angry, you know, because she was, you know, dared to talk to someone about the abuse, what was happening in the home.

And um when she came back down to the house, and I’ve spoken to mom about this since and and mom actually thought that because she was nursing this little six week old baby that he wouldn’t hit her because she was holding a baby.

And um but like every benchmark of violence that he impacted uh on our family or inflicted on our family, mom and I, you always think that the worst it would get, but it would always get worse.

Um and on this day, mom came back inside the little flat we lived in and um he started, you know, carrying on and um abusing mom verbally.

And then he hit her and um so that time he fractured her orbital bone or jaw.

It was really severe.

Um, and mom talks about that now and she said probably harder for her than the the the getting hurt, getting hit with such severity and force was the fact that the little baby and the baby’s brother were were really crying.

I really hysterical cuz I hadn’t seen that before.

But she said probably one of the hardest things for her was the fact that um as a three-year-old, she said I didn’t even blink or flinch because I was just normal.

like >> I was just normal, you know, and and so that was one of the earliest memories.

I guess one of the other ones where I was a victim was at the swimming pool one day and um I think we we ran tried to get away or something like that and what would happen was this like sort of pursuit pattern where we’d go away, he would find us, he’d come back and say, “Oh, you know, not won’t hurt you again.

I love you.

” And that would very quickly graduate to well the reason that I hurt you last time was because you did this and you did that and but in that really fleeting moment of like uh I’m going to do everything I can to to get you back and so I can can control you guys again.

He’d be nice in the sense of maybe shout dinner or like hot hot chips or something.

>> And on this occasion he took us to a swimming pool and um you know I remember I couldn’t swim.

when I was only little, but I didn’t go to have those safe experiences that, you know, my own kids have where they can go to swimming lessons like play footy kids, things like that.

I didn’t get to have those experiences.

So, I could I couldn’t swim.

And I remember him telling me to get in the pool.

And um I was really scared.

And but in his eyes, I remember this really vividly in in his I could almost see this like you’re being ungrateful.

Like I’ve brought you down to the pool and I’ve paid for it and I’m a really good stepdad and you’re just being like a [ __ ] of a kid and ungrateful and and I know I’m going to punish you because his family were there too.

Almost like he was embarrassed that someone would defy him by not getting in the pool.

And so I remember him kicking me in the pool, like kicking me in the back and um and I fell in the pool and I was starting to drown.

I was getting really scared, you know, and he pull me remember pulling me out by the hair and giving me a bashing in front of his family and other people that at the swimming pool.

And um I just remember that message was really clear like if I can do this to you here while everyone’s watching.

And my mom poor mom was on the tower.

She was terrified.

Imagine what I’ll do to you if behind closed doors.

And I was sent a message to me to behave, be good, you know, not be a good kid.

Um, but also sent a message to my mom like, I can hurt you, but I also hurt him.

I don’t I don’t care.

You know, >> even the fact that you have such a vivid memory as a three-year-old.

I mean, I think back to when I was three, and I I honestly can’t remember much.

It’s like all a bit of a blur.

>> Yeah.

>> But you have these really strong vivid memories of things because they were so traumatic.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh that those are things that I p pushed down for a long time and um have started to come out in the last couple of years.

The way I’m glad they come out now cuz you’re able to work work through that and get get to peace with those parts of your life that had always been a bit confusing.

>> Your mom eventually left him and there was an incident where he found your house and entered your house illegally.

Can you tell me about that? Yeah.

So we mom had left and um you know we’re talking about now probably about 1987 rural New South Wales um place called Aubry which is a pretty pretty big yeah regional center but uh not a huge amount of support for single moms um back then there’s probably not a huge amount of support now to be honest but things are different you know 40 odd years ago as well but mom had managed to um you know my mom was really courageous in the sense that she’d always try she always try and get us away she’d never never give up, which was, you know, an example of the character that she had despite all the hardships that she had faced herself in her short life.

Um, I liken it to two kids trying to run away cuz my mom was just a little little kid as well, you know.

Um, but we’d gotten away and uh mom was in the in the tub taking a bath and I was think I was asleep and uh he came in through the window and he you know the the sexual stuff and I’ve learned more about this over the years uh reading books that my mom has written.

Uh my mom became an academic um in the social work field and a really strong advocate for survivors of um intimate partner sexual violence and there’s you know written many books and you know I’ve read those books and um it’s good because I understand violent men more and you know understand um different sort of uh counseling dynamics and social work theories and things like that through reading them.

But unfortunately, reading those books probably unlocked a lot of things or reminded me of a lot of things I hadn’t never spoken to my mom about or probably had never really um dealt with or spoken to anyone that had just repressed and locked away.

And this was one of those things.

Um so he’d come through the door.

Um you know, you think about sexual assault and rape and think any level of that is is is horrific and and that’s absolutely right.

But what had happened was that there was like this graded exposure to to sexual violence.

Like he it had just continually gotten worse and worse, you know, to the point where um you know, he would, you know, piss on my mom and and do all these horrific things to her just to degrade her, you know, more and more and more and you threaten to try and make her have sex with his friends and, you know, rape her with gunpoint and all this awful stuff.

And um you know on this night he’d come through the uh window and was raping my mom while she took a a bath at knife point.

And you know I think to myself now that back then people had to know what was happening because we were in social housing or housing commission now the walls you know made out of paper >> basically and people would have heard what was happening but that no one nobody got involved.

no one helped us or tried to save us or intervened or anything like that unless they mind their own business and thought that’s not any of my business or maybe they just I don’t know I don’t know but I don’t know what happened on this night but something happened in the in the he got disturbed um I remember trying to disturb you know get in between them I try and wedge myself in between my mom and him when that was happening because I didn’t care Gemma when I was getting bashed when I was a little kid, a little toddler to me.

And honestly, I didn’t care.

I I just all I wanted was give my mom a break for a couple of minutes.

I just just wanted her to have a break.

She had so many bashings, so much sexual abuse, things like that.

Even when she was a kid, she was a, you know, a victim of child sexual assault.

And I obviously I didn’t know that as a toddler, but I knew what was happening in that moment.

And when these things would happen, I just would do anything to to give her a reprieve.

And you know, mom would say, you know, I didn’t I hated the fact that as a three or four year old, you you knew how to talk like a almost like a man.

And I think now when I look back at it, it was my way of if he was getting angry at mom, I would start to say things to him like, you know, you I’m going to kill you when I grow up and and I [ __ ] bash you and you’re a dog and things like that and the things that I’d heard because I knew it would make him angry.

>> Yeah.

Um, so I would talk to him like that as a toddler.

So then he would direct those bashings to me and I think I didn’t mind because it gives my mom a break for three, four, five minutes, maybe a day even would be the best outcome.

>> And on that night saying, you know, I I wanted didn’t want this to happen to my mom anymore.

So I remember trying to wedge in between them and and you know, getting um on, you know, a lot of those occasions and getting hurt myself.

But at least it broke up that um abuse or something to my mom like give her a chance to run away.

Even if she left me, I didn’t care.

Just get away.

I wanted her to get away because I hated her crying.

I hated to see her hurt all the time.

And anyway, on this night, we just he was must have been disturbed more significantly than a little kid disturbing him.

Um and took off and um but on on that night or around that night, he ended up murdering someone else.

Um that night.

>> Yeah, as far as I can recall, it was the same night and I piece together articles from the newspaper and things like that.

But he um and when I look at the the uh chronolog often share an article from when he was sentenced in the Supreme Court and that article was from 1988 and so I was five then.

So he’d killed someone in a drunken um or drugfueled rage they said in the newspaper.

Um and this is the level of violence they was capable of.

They um dis um dismembered this guy, chopped his head off and um chucked his body down a mine shaft and then one of the co-acused went back later on end up going to jail for that for nine years for for manslaughter.

And I think that was the that was the level of violence he was capable of.

And in the article um in the paper when the judge is sentencing him such a uh such a weird statement to read when you live through what we live through and then you have the judge saying that um uh the murder was not premeditated and that the accused um had shown a great deal of remorse during the court proceedings.

And I think if you had to have come to live in our house for 30 seconds, he wasn’t he wasn’t capable of remorse.

So he got that judge got that wrong.

Yeah.

>> It’s amazing that you and your mom survived him.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

And and even to go even further when he got out of jail years later, my mom saw him down at the river having a swim and um he this judge says he capable of remorse and from shoulder blade to shoulder blade he’s got a tattoos that says head hunter.

snoring.

>> Yeah.

[laughter] >> Yeah.

>> Your mom then met a nice man.

>> Yeah.

>> Hen.

>> Yeah.

>> Tell me about that period of your life because he, in your words, was kind and fair and loving.

Were you able to enjoy that? >> Yeah.

So, my uh stepfather uh Ken, I call him my dad.

Um he’s this year unfortunately passed away.

Ken, sorry.

>> 10.

Thank you.

10 years this year.

And yeah, he he if you talk about um the role models in terms of the men that I’d seen growing up.

Um so my dad, my biological dad, he wasn’t really around.

He was violent.

He wasn’t violent towards mom.

Um and it’s funny because I talk to my dad now about sharing my story and things like that and he still lives in the small country town where I’m from.

And it it’s pretty quiet character.

my dad and say, you know, sharing your story said sometimes I think people think you’re talking about me when I talk about other guy.

Um so anyway, my dad [clears throat] wasn’t really around and then we had the other guy for a few years and then mom met Ken and he was a remarkable um person, Gemma.

He was a really beautiful man.

um you know showed my mom that love was possible that it wasn’t tied to control that um relationships could be healthy and happy and safe and also that you know they came he was 10 years older than mom so I think he met mom when mom was 21 or he was 31 I think and they came from different lifestyles and he so they clashed on some things but I always remember him showing mom as we were growing up that like conflict could be safe and, you know, you could resolve things without having to resort to violence or running away or things like that.

And he wasn’t going to hurt her.

And, you know, he was a um, you know, really hard worker, um, you know, loving, caring, fair, really quite firm, um, but not scary.

He was a safe, just a safe man.

And, you know, we’re also lucky to have him.

Mom especially, >> you yourself became a violent man.

So, do you think that Ken’s influence wasn’t enough? >> I think that it it it and that’s a really good question, Jeemma.

No, no one’s ever asked me that before.

Um, I think his influence was absolutely enough.

But if we look at it like a 100% of an influence trying to come into to a young man, I was probably only open to receiving 30% of that because 70% of my brain or body or whatever was still locked in.

Well, this is what’s happened in the last four or five years.

Is that what men are? How come nobody’s talking to me about it? Um, so mom when she met dad, she went off and um did a lot of, you know, and went through a lot of therapy and uh received a lot of support and and things things like that to work through the really horrific experiences she’d been through.

And you I’m really grateful that she had the opportunity to do that.

She had this really beautiful life, her and dad, together um despite still carrying a lot of trauma.

But uh I guess I kind of I say forgot got forgotten about almost or maybe mom thought I didn’t remember those things but I I did and still had a lot of that like swirling around in my head.

>> I know that boxing became an outlet for you really young as well.

10.

>> Yeah, probably about 10.

Yeah, 10 or 11.

Yep.

Yeah.

>> How did that help you? >> Yeah, probably by the age of about 10.

Um it’s getting a little bit confused.

Probably a bit more confused about things.

generally what what would have happened when I was a kid and um probably wanted to understand a bit more about my own dad and where he was and things like that and um haven’t um ever really spoken to my mom about this before but I remember the age of around 10 10ish p snooping around in my mom and dad’s room I know maybe looking for Christmas presents or something and I’ come across some paperwork that showed that Um while so probably should have prefaced a little bit of the story.

Uh I don’t share this part much because it’s not really my story to tell but during um that last um sexual assault where he came in through the window and mom my mom became pregnant.

Um so uh she had a daughter.

Um, and when I was, you know, creeping around in their room that day looking for presents or whatever, found some paperwork that had showed that um, my stepdad had like legally adopted my um, sister while um, while her biological father was still in prison.

And I guess I probably started to think a lot at that stage.

Uh why would why would you not want like me to be be the same or have the same name and >> be adopted >> and things like that.

And um because I didn’t really see my dad a whole lot during my childhood either.

And I started to even think at that time um maybe he don’t want to do that with me because probably because I let mom get hurt and I couldn’t save her and now you’ve had to try and um now now you’re like my dad was helping her out helped helping her out but like supporting her to to you know get help and you know riding those wave that roller coaster of emotions with her and you know rock solid as But I thought maybe you blame me a little bit for that.

Of course, he didn’t.

But I started to think all these things, you know, maybe maybe my mom doesn’t maybe my mom doesn’t like me either because I I let her get hurt when I was a kid.

And you know, maybe she probably even thinks, you know, if I didn’t have you, I could have gotten away easier, but I had to cut you around all the time.

and and you know my mom wasn’t doing anything to to just to to demonstrate those feelings but as a 10year-old I started to think jump to all those conclusions and I thought I don’t really know what to do.

Um you know I felt like I was bit unloved and unwanted in that moment.

Uh so I just remember leaving home and and and getting on my bike and ride like riding.

I didn’t really know I was going to go but um things were pretty um heavy at that stage for me.

I outwardly I was pretty pretty happy like I preferred to sort of hang out on my own but um inside I was carrying heaps um that I just never spoke to anyone about and and as fate I guess fate would have it rode to the PCYC u in Aubry and and and and wandered in there and and was just drawn straight.

they had basketball and all different things happening in there at that same afternoon, but was just drawn into the boxing room and um sort of watched before I had the confidence to do anything um or ask anyone any questions.

Was watching men’s spar and boxing thinking this is violence, but it was a it was safe.

It was controlled.

and I just fell in love with the sport straight away and started spending a heap of time there even starting to wag school and things like that and just go there and hang out.

Um and my mom had another couple of kids by that stage.

Dad was in the truck a lot and so for me it was a place to go and bit of connection as well.

Yeah.

>> Got to belong somewhere.

It sounds like during your childhood there were these moments that would have writed your path like things like Ken, things like boxing, but you ended up going down the violent route.

H how did that happen? How do you think that kind of spiraled? >> Yes.

Um spiral pretty quickly after that, Gemma.

Uh I don’t know what I don’t know what was the catalyst for it but I don’t know if I started hanging around the boxing gym and thinking I was probably a little bit better than I was bit tougher bit or had to form this identity of being a young man.

I know at one stage there was um you know some other um sexual abuse happening in our like extended family and I thought it was my responsibility to fix that.

Um, so I I did that in in as a young teenager in, you know, the the way that I thought was right.

Um, started to become angry about, you know, different things.

And I guess I felt like I’d asked to go and live with my dad a fair bit, but, you know, hadn’t been allowed to go.

Um but then you know I started to and I was really ashamed of it now but started to do the things that I thought when I was grow I’m never going to do that.

I promise myself I’m never going to do that.

I started you know pushing my mom around a bit you know becoming verbally abusive to her um to try and get my not to excuse it but to try and get my own way to go and live with my dad.

I thought if I could just sabotage this home life by being a, you know, an awful young man, then that would make the decision for me and they’d say, “Well, you can just go then.

” Cuz you’ve been, you know, an [ __ ] around the home.

Um, started being really disrespectful and rude to Ken.

tried to fight him a few times and I just hit this part of my life at about 13 or 14 where I was just didn’t really know what a man was, but I was just determined to find this own way um of of being what I guess I thought a man was and it was so wrong.

Um I damaged a lot of relationships and started to use violence a lot um even at school and things like that.

got to the point where my mom and dad agreed for me to go and live with my dad and I’ve got a good relationship with my dad now.

Um, but during that time it was pretty pretty crazy.

My dad was um dad was pretty wild.

Uh, and I saw heaps and you know more violence and I guess more violence than I’d ever seen before with dad.

Yeah.

lots of lots of drugs, lots of drinking, lots of um heavy characters coming in and out of um our lives.

But to me, I gravitated towards them.

I thought these guys are what a man is.

I I want to be like them.

and started to to, you know, go more and more down that path and embrace that idea that being a violent, you know, a violent man that used violence at all costs um was the way to go.

And I started to, I guess, form this like idea that because I’d see the people I’d see what would happen when my dad would walk into a room, people would sit up and pay attention.

People would um notice him.

He had a presence when he’d go into a room, whether we were going to a party, whether we were going to a clubhouse or where wherever we were going.

But my dad had a presence and I thought not it wasn’t a presence that I see now with with men that have gained respect in normal ways.

Um, but so at that time I seen that and people were scared of him and even my mates all thought he was cool um and stuff and I thought, “Oh, I I want to be like that.

” So I’m going to start to do the doing to to to get like that.

But unfortunately, there’s only I say there’s only room for one lion on the top of the mountain.

So my dad and I lashed, you know, really badly during those years and got to the point where I decided to move out of his house after about three or four years because I that’s one stage there.

I thought one of us might kill the other one.

I kept getting angry.

Um, and but that idea of violence and those tastes of violence that stuck with me and I I thought, you know, this is still what a man does.

And um, if anything, it even made me more bent or more determined to become more violent when I left home, left, moved away from my dad because I wanted to be better than him, stronger than him, tougher than him.

Um, I wanted I wanted him to be in a room and pay attention when I walked in, not the other way around.

The only way I knew how to do that was to be in the hope would get back to him and then I hope I’d have a chance to cross paths with him again in the future and use that violence on him as well.

>> Heard you say that you wanted to become a monster because monsters.

>> That’s exactly what I wanted to do.

So I I I kept, you know, going back to those time times when I was a little kid thinking about being hurt and scared and vulnerable.

And I thought if I can, it was around the time that I uh was probably my late teens, early 20s, I knew that the person from our childhood had been released from jail again for something else.

And not only was I forming a plan to um hurt my dad, I was forming a I was forming a a a really wellthoughtout plan to kill him.

>> Really? >> Yeah.

I even secured a a gun to do it with.

I had a plan.

I knew where I was going to grab him from.

I knew what car I was going to stuff him into.

And I I I knew exactly what I was going to do.

And during that process of forming that plan, I I decided to become a monster because monsters don’t get hurt.

And I thought to myself, if I can go and do this, I can write all those wrongs at from when I was a kid.

Was my stepdad like was was he angry at me because I couldn’t protect mom? Did I let mom down by not being able to protect her? Um did I let my little sister down because I couldn’t stop what happened to her? Um I set all this right by just by doing that.

And um to to even go down that path of becoming what you know I’ll call a monster now.

I thought I’m going to have to get you know big and so I started to abuse drugs, anabolic steroids.

Um started to you know use amphetamines daily, you know, started smoking ice.

anything that would anything that would blunt any thoughts that would sneak in from the great role models.

And I had some really good role models growing up.

My stepdad, my my grandparents, most two of the most special people.

They were the two most special people in my life.

My grandparents have both passed on now.

But um you know, anytime I’d have a thought of them coming into my mind, I would use drug.

do anything I can to get that out.

>> Push it out because I didn’t want to back off from that plan.

I didn’t want to listen to the the good things they had instilled in me >> because I wanted to to I was hellbent on doing this.

Even like I said, I even had a plan worked out.

>> What does a monster look daytoday? Were you in relationships? Were you showing love and then that turning into violence? Were you picking fights at the coffee shop? Like what did what did it look like? Yeah.

So, in the daytime I was working I was um working in laboring and construction and things like that.

Um pretty fine at at work.

Was pretty construction things like that pretty rough.

So, I was I I wasn’t an anomaly on a job site.

You know, I was heaps of rough rough guys on a job site.

So, I fitted in pretty well.

um was definitely in in relationships and string of different sort of relationships because I didn’t have the uh I didn’t have the knowledge of how to commit to a long-term relationship in a safe and loving and and open way.

So I’ when things would get too too scary in the sense of I’m being expected to commit now or share a little bit about myself or I jump out of that and jump into another relationship because I I I I wanted someone around and I wanted that guess that connection with someone but I didn’t know how to have it properly.

I didn’t really like being alone because then you know a lot of the thoughts would come come back.

because, you know, I had a lot of voice, you know, voices in my head, different thoughts and things like that.

Um, and I started to, you know, when I couldn’t get my way with things or I didn’t like the way things were going, I started to use violence in in my relationships as well.

Started, you know, off and I never used the words, you know, low level, high level violence as violence, but started off as verbal, you know, um, threats and things things like that.

and escalated to physical violence.

And at that time, I didn’t see anything wrong with it.

And and even at the time, you know, looked to outside of like the physical men that I was seeing dayto day and think I want to be like that.

I was, you know, I had this idea of, you know, wanting to be a man was like my role model in like makebelieve world, I guess, was Jake the Maself once were warriors because he was this big guy and you know, he ruled ruled his house and, you know, I would look at things like that and I think that’s the sort of partner I’m going to be that’s, you know, so I thought that was an ideal relationship as well and I started to, you know, mirror or copycat those exact behaviors that that people like that were were demonstrating as well, even though he’s only a fictional character, but I thought that was a relationship.

And I thought, you know, there was something to be controlling your partner was something to be proud of.

I thought that was something to be proud of.

You know what I mean? >> I’m imagining that these women would have been doing things like crying, cowering, running away from you when stuff like this was happening.

And what I’m trying to understand is as a little boy, you hated seeing that happening to your mom.

You physically tried to stop that happening.

But how could you do that to other women and not feel that same feeling that you had with your mom? >> Yeah.

I wouldn’t even um I wouldn’t even, you know, lie or try and make an excuse to GMA and say, “Oh, you know, it was blunted cuz I was smoking ice.

I was blunted cuz I was using cocaine or whatever.

Wouldn’t even bother trying to rationalize it by saying that.

I don’t know.

I don’t don’t know how I could do it, you know.

I don’t I don’t know.

But what I do know was that when when those things would happen like partners will cry or like that or never would be the one to say you know comfort them or hug them or you know say are you okay talk about it more like stop crying or shut up.

What are you crying for? You know what I mean? I’d even start to dip my toe in that pool of, oh, you think this, you think this is bad, you know? You should have grew up how I grew up.

This is this is not even bad what’s happening to you or even make myself the focus of it.

[ __ ] [ __ ] up.

was uh they would be crying because of something I’d done and say, “Oh, you you should have seen what happened to me when I was a little.

Nobody cared about me.

You know, you’re you know I poor me.

” You know what I mean? Um I was doing some awful things.

I don’t know.

I don’t know why.

>> I think that that’s really hard to hear that you don’t know because I think there’s so much violent violence now.

Like we hear about women dying every week at the hands of violent men.

And I think that’s why I’m like why? Tell me why.

Why are these men so violent when they can see that these people that they supposedly love >> are bashed, bruised, damaged, crying.

And it’s devastating to hear that.

I mean, you’re such a different man now, but and looking back that you you you can’t pinpoint why.

I think like I I can pinpoint heaps of reasons why um the exposure to what I saw growing growing up, the normalization of violence in our house, the the you know status that being a violent person or violent man gave me amongst my peer group.

Um you know my inability to feel things.

I was blunted to feeling anything.

So, so I I have heaps of reasons why, but I feel like every time I say that, even when I say that to you now, I feel like it takes away from the feel like I’m taking away from the experience of of my partners at the time.

I feel like I’m robbing them of of what they felt and they’re by trying to say, “Oh, you know, it’s because I was bashed as a kid.

It’s because I only saw violence.

Because yeah, I I know why I was doing it, but I just feel like every time I say it just feels piss week in in comparison to what my partners would have been going through.

Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I completely get [clears throat] it.

>> And I can see why from your childhood.

But I think it’s just like, >> you know, it’s this thing that in society we’re trying to unpick.

Why am I involent? Why are they doing this? And we always have said that it started from childhood and it’s something that you learn over time.

But I guess it’s now at a point where we’re like, well, how do we unpick it? >> Yeah.

>> Um, there was an incident outside a pub cuz it wasn’t only women.

We’ve talked about your dad and your stepdad and but you were kind of hurting men as well.

>> Tell me about the incident outside the pub because that kind of changed the game a bit.

that that changed the game um considerably because at that stage um of my life I was pretty resigned to I wanted to join a a fight club um because that gave me a lot of connection um and identity and belonging and I thought that’s what my next part of my life’s going to be like um whether that involves going to jail or not whether my offending gets worse or not all part and parcel um of what’s to come down the path.

So I was h you know on that track and I was fairly happy in in a drug adult messed up kind of way that assault though that happened that that night outside a pub in Waga.

Um, the severity of that, not only in what happened during that assault, but in terms of what I was charged with changed the game for me because all of a sudden these uh encounters with the criminal justice system that I’ve been having, you know, nights here and there in custody, refused bail, things like that, these little I seemed to be a period of time where I was always in contact with the system, whether it was for a bond or probation order or had to go and do a course and things like that.

And this is how messed up I was.

I remember having to do a 10e anger management course um for a violent offense committed while I was drunk.

Um and that doesn’t excuse it, but it’s part of the story.

And then in week 10 of that course, you know, going out and getting drunk again to graduate, celebrate graduating the course and then assaulting someone again like I was, you know, like a clown, you know.

Um but that assault that night all of a sudden these little bits and pieces of like good behavior bonds and probation orders and things like that all of a sudden escalated to potentially 10 years in custody.

Um >> so it was at that time that I started to um people would say to me, you know, when I was on worried about >> No, but I was worried about going to jail because I’d started to distance myself a little bit away from some of the lifestyle and people that I was hanging around.

Um, and it was during that time I started to spend more and more time in the company and my grandparents as well and you know got off the drugs and um started to open up to what life might be like without violence.

I started to forget about trying to kill that other guy and in the sense of there had to be more to life and it was around about that same time that I met someone and became pregnant and for me that was that’s my oldest son’s mom and that for me that was a to change because I thought had lots of relationships and things like that hadn’t been enough to make me change.

Um, not that it was their responsibility, my partners, but when I knew that I was going to be a dad, um, I thought to myself, there’s someone coming along, someone will be coming along, it’s going to need me more than I need me.

So, I had to get better.

And then when we went to the ultrasound, found out we’re having a little boy, I thought, this is a this is a real chance to break that cycle.

and still had a pretty pretty heavy um jail sentence hanging over my head.

Um I was on, you know, I was on bail when I met my oldest son’s mom and they put up with a lot of things, you know, me having to report and do all these things probably wasn’t expecting when you start a relationship.

Um I started to to do things a little bit better and and started to coach kids with boxing and things like that.

And by the time this matter ended up going through court had been through court, you know, maybe two years that had sort of went through the process going to court, I you know, really removed myself from that other lifestyle.

Um, you know, and started to to try and change things.

Um, and started trying to be better and and and do better.

And and fortunately the magistrate or the judge saw that when I came up to be sentenced >> because he ended up giving you a suspended sentence.

So no jail time.

>> No no no jail time which was you know for me it was really um as a chance at it was a second chance at life.

And at that stage I think I was 20 maybe 23 or four which is young.

It’s still young, but for me and when I talk to other men that have lived similar lives, 23 years or 24 years of violence is you’re like, it’s like 124 years of life.

It’s like your age in doggies.

[laughter] [clears throat] You are one of the minority that deserved a second chance, but I can’t move past this part of the conversation without asking you because I feel like there are so many stories that I write every week that my team writes about men who get second chances from magistrates with lengthy violent pasts who end up killing someone >> the next time they’re out.

largely women.

But do you think that these men or more men are needing these second chances? Do we need to be tougher? What’s your take? >> How much time do we have? [laughter] In all seriousness, I’m thankful for a second chance.

And if you looked at my story on paper, no way.

I’d already had I’d already had a 13th 14th chance.

You know what I mean? I should have been >> should have not have had that that chance.

I’m thankful now every day that 20 years.

Um, but when we see what you’re talking about with men killing women while they’re on bail or while they’re on parole or, you know, continuing to get bailed despite these lengthy criminal histories related to domestic and family violence, you know, we have to be tougher, I guess, in in talking to men that are used violence and and men that perhaps don’t want to be violent anymore, but without making this sound like a out.

They don’t want to be violent, haven’t been shown anything different, or they don’t know how to do things differently.

You know, sometimes I think when we tell people just just stop using violence, just mate, just stop just don’t be violent.

It’s about as useful as telling a woman in that situation, I’ll just leave.

>> Yeah.

>> You know what I mean? Like it doesn’t >> it’s not that easy.

>> It’s not that easy.

And um well, and so what I’ve gained from talking to men, if we’re talking about the court system and the judicial system and things like that, is that men that are trying to change their behavior will often not have access to programs or or things that are therapeutic in nature, definitely.

Um but behavioral change that’s delivered by men that have used violence and change You know what I think? We’re going to change the behavior of men that are using violence, they probably need to hear from other men that have used violence and have changed.

You know, been delivering a program recently um around domestic and family violence.

Um you know, it’s over two days talk about violence and you know, creating an identity for young men without violence attached to it.

um and their experience as witnesses of DV as kids and gone on to perpetrate the same violence and things like that, you know, interspersing these pieces of breath work throughout these two days.

And and I guess what I’m getting at is when I set that program up, I’ve got a remarkable female co-f facilitator.

And I think that dynamic is what’s needed too in terms of what we do in custody, but also with men in the community because I have to hear a female perspective, especially from a victim survivor standpoint, but also coming from a man who’s lived that life and and walk that path and and knows what it’s like to change because sometimes the people that are delivering these programs haven’t haven’t been in that mindset before and don’t know what it takes to change and feel like that probably takes a lot away from the experience of the person in the program too.

But in a long-winded way to answer your question, I do think we absolutely need to be buffer especially on bail conditions um or or presumption against bail for people that have a a history of domestic and and family violence offending because fact of the matter is we’re losing women and we’re losing them at the hands of men that have been violent.

They’ve got a history of violence.

It’s not like, oh, this is the first time you before the court will give you a p, you know, ba rule in favor of bail.

You know, this is your 50th time bail.

And it can’t just be an overcrowding of prison t, you know, we’ve got no beds or, you know, um, you know, there’s no funding for for, you know, I don’t know, for programs or things like that.

So, we’ll have to put you here and need to do something about it because I think I think we reached the peak 18 months ago losing one four days and >> a father of four two boys two girls don’t want my girls to grow up I don’t want my girls to grow up in that in a world where they where they could the statistics >> you mentioned you know I don’t know the statistics off the top of my head but it is like five seven 10 times that women try and leave film partners before they actually leave do you think it’s similar with men it’s five 10 15 times of like trying to re in that violence.

Like how is that process of turning your life around? How does that go? Because you’ve you’ve talked to thousands of men, not just your own experience, but is it possible? Can we turn violent men into good citizens? >> Yeah, I like the way you put that.

Um I I think we I think we absolutely can.

I think some things have to change though.

And one of those things that has to change is uh if you’re a man that’s using a violence, quite often you have to come into contact with the criminal justice system to then be eligible for referral to a program, >> right? >> Why do you have to be >> at that point >> at that point to get help? Um you know, it’s like um you know, why can’t you get help earlier? You know, >> why can’t uh clinical interventions for violent men be eligible for Medicare? Why, you know, why why can’t um >> uh family therapy or or marriage or relationship counseling, why why can’t that be bulk bill? Like I know I’m talking about money, but there’s seems to be some barriers in the way of of men accessing help earlier on in their trajectory of violent behavior or relationship difficulties that I don’t know.

I feel like that could be removed without a lot of without without a lot of obstacle.

Uh >> but also, you know, we’re we’re seeing men engage in programs under the direction of the court uh quite often as a diversion to custody or when they’re on parole.

Uh, so there’s this onus of, well, I’ll I’ll I’ll do that now because I don’t want to go to jail or I’ll do that now because I don’t want to go to, you know, I don’t want to breach my parole.

Um, >> not because I’m ready to change.

>> Not because I’m ready to change.

And I think I think I guess one of the things that that I’m doing in terms of delivering these programs in custody is let’s do that here.

You’re quite literally a captive audience, so let’s do that now.

>> Yeah.

Let’s let’s do that while you’re in custody, not when you’re get out and you’re just going to do it because it’s breaching your, you know, I don’t want to breach my I better stupid course, you know.

>> Um yeah, that there has to be more opportunity for men that are wanting to change to engage in programs rather than having to get to a point where they’re directed by the court and then quite often are.

>> Therapy is such a big part of all of this.

So, I want to rewind a bit and talk about your journey with therapy >> because it didn’t start great.

You finally reached out.

You’re ready to change.

You sit down with a therapist and he’s a excuse my language [ __ ] to you.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

So, my my journey with therapy actually started um a little So, I I talk about having three strikes.

Three strikes with so at the height of my violence and high probably low the low of my violence um addiction dysfunction.

I actually tried to take my own life.

finished up in psychiatric ward in a hospital >> and asked for help then at an early age I was 22 >> really >> things could have been as said things would have been different they could have been but I remember the psychiatrist telling me during and at that stage I didn’t have any skills in life I knew how to pour concrete and be violent knew how to make dinners things like that even know how to go doctor if I had a sort ear anything but at that stage I thought this is an opportunity in now for help.

So, I was getting a bit fatigued.

It’s life, you know.

Um, when I’d be home alone, hurt partners, hurt people, and I was home alone and I cry a lot because I scared little kid and I thought getting tired of this help.

I asked the psychiatrist if I’d stay in hospital when he came to discharge him and he remember him saying, you know, that’s not ever been vulnerable saying, you can’t stay here because you don’t belong people like you don’t belong in hospital I belong in jail um and talk to me about drug induced psychosis things like that and I didn’t understand it but all I understood was the first few words you you belong in jail >> you don’t belong here >> you don’t belong here you don’t deserve help lock you up like an animal you know and was probably part of it was a fair statement but that was my first strike and it took me another sevenish years to reach out for help.

Um, yeah.

And then I went and saw a counselor and remember crying in that session cuz he asked me why I was there and I thought about my son, you know, and didn’t want him to go through the things I’ve gone through.

I hadn’t used violence for a long time, like five years at that stage.

And I still had all these ideas that I had to get, you know, I knew the work wasn’t done.

And um remember him cry uh laughing at me crying as I giggling you know and I know now as a counselor now sometimes you have to reach to build a rapport and I think look back now is that his misguided way of trying to build a rapport but him saying I never seen anyone with tattoos cry before that’s two strikes [laughter] I’m out of here >> and someone who hasn’t been violent you wanted to be violent >> yeah I did I did in that moment and I talk about this when I share my story in that moment I um I felt so weak and vulnerable and and you know in that moment I actually went went to grab that guy because I wanted to revert back to that behavior because only I knew how to reverse that at that time and they’re going back 15 years now but the only way I knew how to change that was to be the one that was in the position and >> I almost slipped back into that behavior then.

Yeah, my third lucky I went spoke to another guy been training a few boxers back then and spoke to another guy.

He actually just come out of jail and um he had to see talk about not wanting to do things under juress but he had to see a psychologist part of his parole was training for a fight and um and he said go and see this this guy who’s unreal and what he said probably galvanized it because he understands folks like us you and I.

So I went along I saw this other fellow psychologist and um he was he was incredible.

Unfortunately he very rudely got a promotion and stopped practicing a couple of years later.

So ended up having to find someone else.

Conversely, who I see now is a female psychologist and those first couple of strikes were all with men because I thought never talked to woman fe woman doctor or clinician or I only want to speak to men, you know, probably embarrassed to talk about the things I’ve done to judge me.

And >> a lot of them were to women.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

I’ve done a lot of shitty things to women as a how’s a female clinician or psychologist to me and lady I see now is amazing, you know.

But yes, so therapy was a pretty bumpy road for me at the beginning and it almost pulled out a couple of times.

>> Do you think if you as that young little boy age five, it’s so young to think about therapy, but if you had some kind of the therapy at that age, do you think that we could have saved you from this life of violence? >> Yeah, I think so, Gemma.

Um I see now um working with you know adolescent mental health part of my job I see some really specialized clinicians that provide you know trauma informed care for kids that had the same lives as me um some lot them worse than what I went through and I see that work that’s being done with them and it’s remarkable and I think if I had had that opportunity if I had had that opportunity and stayed with my mom and stepdad definitely Ely later on in life I end up being diagnosed with attachment disorder and complex PTSD and ADHD and and talk about that to some people and they ask me a very similar question to what to what you’ve asked but more in terms of medication for ADHD and if you had have had that earlier do you think life would have been different maybe as a teenager because I was pretty terrible at school.

I was bad academically and I was really naughty.

Um but I think to myself no because living with my dad I wouldn’t have understood her you know he wouldn’t have taken me for the appointments or anything like that.

So I think that diagnosis and that medication came along at the right time but if I had have had someone psychologist or psychiatrist or counselor or someone that really cared when I was five um yeah I think things would have been a lot different uh if I stayed with my mom and stepdad and continued to have influence from my grandparents.

things would have been different and you know when I first started sharing my story it was from a colleague or friend now who’s a social worker a lecturer she said to me because I kept saying talk about her hook to me a few years ago five six years ago was no you need to come in and I want you to speak to I got a bunch of thirdyear social work students at uni one of the unis here in Sydney charm name and she said I need you to come in and talk to them because they need to know what what you needed from a social worker when you’re growing up but you didn’t get it your life might have been different if you had someone care so I think if I had had opportunity for that five you know 38 years ago things would have been different >> I keep mentioning you help thousands of men you talk to thousands of men and women can you explain to the listeners what that means because over the last 20 years you’ve been working in kind of the mental health space but also boxing paint a picture of what you’ve been doing >> yeah no no worries Yes, thank you.

Um, so work primarily work with um, so I’ve got two jobs.

Um, work for say >> you are.

>> Okay.

So I work for New South Wales Health full-time.

Um, work with young people in custody as a as a clinician that involves running programs throughout youth justice centers.

Used to be what people used to call juvies um, across the state.

um and and the focus of three programs in my portfolio.

One’s a domestic and family violence program for young men and women in custody.

The other one’s a remote um psychiatry clinic outreach to um rural New South Wales and the other one is a program understanding your own mental health and how important that is to your identity.

So, you know, really quite busy with that.

But on the side of that, I’ve had a private practice for the last few company business practice um for the last five years, rolling with the punches where I initially started that to make mental health services more accessible.

So I’ve been working with state government for about 20 years now, but doing my own stuff for about five years.

And the reason I wanted to do that was I wanted to make mental health services more accessible for people that were falling through the gaps.

Um and what I was getting was this feedback of we, you know, we want to talk to someone about our mental health.

We want to talk to someone who looks like us.

So had a few person out here council be like a counselor and makes us feel comfortable.

Started to do that a little bit more and more and more.

Um and that grew um a fair bit.

Um started to probably work with men that weren’t going to access therapy anywhere ever.

Um >> and that had its barriers in the sense of like a lot of that’s free because these are not guys that are going to go and get a mental health care plan or things like that.

Um >> probably haven’t been to a GP.

>> Haven’t been to a GP.

Um and so that was good though because that was part of my own healing was to be able to not attach a you know I do this because you know bucks for do this because paid for it.

It was more like I do this because it’s important.

You know, I’m really lucky to have a amazing wife Kate that she could see the benefit in that stuff as well.

Um really understanding kids that know sometimes they what do for work dad help people is the easiest way to explain especially to the little ones.

But with the private stuff was the first few years was just men just working around men’s mental health and things like that.

And I started to branch out a little bit more in the sense of all right, so we’re working with these men, but then how do we rebuild trust with their partners and kids, especially with men that had been violent? Um, and around that time, what this was around the time really overwhelming statistics around, you know, partner violence and women being murdered at the hands of their partners a few years ago.

sort of branched off and started up a free women’s boxing program um for domestic violence awareness and connection and and empowerment for women and got some tough feedback on that from some people because some of the emails and messages I get were around, you know, that’s great, mate, but why should women have to learn to box? >> Which is always the >> Yeah, you guys should just stop beating us up and killing us, you know, and and [clears throat] that’s true.

>> It’s true.

And my feedback to that was, you know, completely empathize with where you’re coming from.

But as someone who’s had my past as a father of two girls, it’s the only way I know how to to pro share something that helped me in boxing.

Um, create this community of women that were able to be connected through boxing.

And unfortunately about two years ago, so I sort of stepped right back from that and hand that over to a female coach had some funing So she’s she’s a legend.

Um to to pay her to to run that and so start answer your question from mental health into sort of I guess more family work um always sharing my story along the way when the opportunity would arise.

So I’ve shared it a lot with um department education teachers to help them understand when you’re presented with a kid like me that’s tell you know leaving class telling you to [ __ ] off climbing up on the roof things like that.

Maybe this is why I share my story.

I share what I went through.

Um, but I’ve probably got to the point where I’m at now where a lot of the work now is in delivering sort of week-long interventions now with uh groups of men in different parts of Australia.

And some of the feedback I get is, you know, ah, you know, next time you come um could you, you know, and I said back off a little bit in the programs or we want you to come back and run it again.

But men said it was really confronting and I say you want someone to tiptoe around these issues and get some brew with respect.

There’s plenty of other BS out there doing this work.

Find find someone else because if I’m making the effort to go to different parts of Australia and you’re making the effort to bring me there then get like we got boring in.

>> You’re not going to sugarcoat your >> story or Yeah.

Yeah.

No, there’s no no the change won’t happen if we continue to, you know, tiptoe around these issues and not not call out the behavior of of the men that are using the violence.

Someone had have called my stuff out earlier on maybe might have been enough for me to to stop either.

So s can’t sit around in groups of you know men and you know normalize this behavior or you know only work on the physical violence but okay if you verbally that’s not really you know what I mean like so my program is pretty intensive but I think that’s the only way to to make a change.

>> Are you seeing success stories? >> Yeah.

Yeah.

Seeing success stories in the sense that um going to do a um job shortly.

Um where it’s a group of men that came through my program that are now wanting to uh facilitate the programs themselves.

>> Like ah so we were participants um we want you to now like can you come back and train us to to deliver these interventions as well because we we believe in it and we we’ve changed the things that we were doing as well.

So um that’s probably one of the most resounding success stories when you see that.

Yeah.

>> Um and also when we’re seeing young people coming through custody and you know they stop they stop coming back.

>> You know seeing people that I’ve worked with over the last 20 years now in healthy functional relationships they’ve got their own kids.

You know I may have met them in custody.

They may have been locked up.

They’ll come back now and they’ll say things like when you came in and talk to us about healthy relationships five years ago or six or seven or eight or 10 years ago.

At the time I wasn’t open to that.

At the time I was like you know but now 10 years later I’ve got partner I’ve got kids of our own.

And I often go back to those things and you know that’s and I and I stopped going back to custody and I stopped wanting people to associate my name with being the best car thief or the best criminal or you know I wanted them to associate my name with being the best carpenter or the best youth worker or the best doctor or gave me helped me form an identity away from >> we talk about men avoiding therapy.

I can imagine that when you first talk to them about breath work, they’re a bit hesitant.

Can you give us an example of what that actually looks like? I’m trying to visualize what breath work with men who are violent even looks like.

>> Yeah, it’s um give you a funny visual.

I remember running a program for a group of men and for their for their own anonymity.

Not that they would mind.

I won’t identify them, but they’re part of a a really successful program that’s been running in Sydney um for a number of years.

It’s a men that are coming to the end of their custodial sentences and they’re allowed out um prison each day to participate in programs can be job readiness um you know fitness stuff, cultural things um but a big component of addressing a violent behavior.

Um and so to to see group of men uh engaging in breath work practices uh laying on the floor in a room and the breath work that I teach wear eye mask and headphones because it completely individualizes so you’re not like looking at the person next to you he’s not doing it properly you know >> but seeing all these guys really really immersed in that but also seeing all their ankle monitors is is a funny one.

[laughter] That’s a funny one.

um but they buy into it and you know going out to places where it thought that would never be um people would never get into it.

We’re really lucky to be able to share that with men and women and um and young people as well because it’s it’s taking therapy out.

>> Brush me off if this is not possible but I’m wearing headphones.

>> Yeah, >> I can close my eyes.

Can you put me through an exercise? >> I’ll also take young guys and young men in custody through breathing practices and other people through breathing practice.

They can do in that they don’t need subscription to an app or headphones or you know me sitting there you know they can do it if things are signed up in traffic anyway.

So we can go through.

>> Yeah, let’s do one.

>> So do it’s pretty easy this one.

It’s pretty it’s easy because it’s a good go-to.

I don’t if you’re familiar with box breathing.

>> Nope.

>> Okay.

So get to close your eyes.

You’re going to go inhale for 4 seconds.

I’ll count you through it.

So close your eyes.

Yeah.

So I want you to take a big inhale for four.

Hold for four.

Two.

Four.

Four.

Hold on.

Round two.

Four.

Hold for four.

Four.

Four.

Two.

And on.

Empty.

One.

Halfway in.

Two, three, four.

Hold for four.

Two.

Out for four.

Hold on.

Empty.

Two.

Four.

Last one.

In.

Four.

2.

Hold.

Four.

Out for four.

or hold on empty breathing.

Maybe you feel a little bit calmer.

>> I’m like, whoa.

>> Yeah.

And that’s easy.

You can do that, you know, >> because I’m not I wouldn’t consider myself a violent person, but I have two kids under three.

My husband’s currently away for work.

I’m solo parenting.

I’ve got a lot of stress, a lot of tension.

And for me that it it made me focus on the breathing and I could feel my brain just kind of chilling out a bit.

So I can I can imagine if I was, you know, I had violent tendencies.

It’s that moment like just stop for a minute and breathe.

And >> I can see how that really works.

>> Yeah, it’s easy.

That’s a go-to.

Anybody can do that.

You don’t need me or headphones.

There’s a lot of women who would be listening to this hopefully learning a lot from you, but what would you want them to take away from our chat? >> If they can take anything away from this conversation with the experiences they may have had throughout their lives is that there are still there are some safe men um out there.

Some some men can change uh their behavior.

I would never suggest to to a woman that’s been through, you know, violence, they should just open up off the back of this podcast and go, “Oh, well, he, you know, he did it.

You know, I can trust everyone or he’ll change or, you know, I’ll give my partner another go.

That’s been awful, you know, awful to me for a whole relationship.

” But there there are safe men out there.

And actually, there’s a small number of of of men that that are doing the same work that are really trying to change.

There’s a few of us that are really trying to change things for for for women, but also for men and also for families.