The Deadly Obsession That Drove Jodi Arias To Murder Her Lover

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>> So, we thought, let’s let’s look into this, but it’s been done a lot.

How can we do this differently? I think for us now with everybody’s fascination with kind of the criminal mindset of things, we thought doing a deep dive into her psychology would really be something that was a little bit different.

And when I got the police report and was able to look at her journal entries and her emails and her IM messages and really go through all of them, it became this clear pattern of of somebody and the writings that h I hadn’t seen a ton of about their out there about everything.

And so when I was able to do that and then learning she was running a blog from prison now, it kind of set up this psychological look at the case that was a little bit different than what had been out there before.

I want to start with Travis, the victim in this story.

Can you paint us a picture of who he was, where he was living, what he was doing with his life? >> Yeah, absolutely.

So, Travis Alexander was 30 years old.

He was super outgoing.

He was, you know, a de devout Mormon of the LDS faith and he was living in Mesa, Arizona.

And just to kind of give people a geographic location for that, Phoenix is pretty big and Mesa is also a very large city here in Arizona in the valley.

Um, just outside Phoenix.

It’s east of Phoenix.

So, it all kind of functions as one big part of this Phoenix metropolitan area.

Mesa is heavily populated.

Travis was a big part of his faith.

He was a big part of his business.

Um and and so he would go to these conventions, had a lot of friends, was almost like a motivational speaker of sorts, and he was kind of a pillar for his family.

The siblings, the Alexander siblings, lost their parents um not a a lot before this happened.

And Travis was kind of the one they describe and the friends describe that really kind of held the family together.

And so you could kind of tell he was that naturalb born leader.

He was funny.

I mean, I think people described him and they did in our documentary as being very drawn to him.

You wanted to be his friend.

You wanted to be in the room with him and he would command a room.

And so, I think he he had that kind of reputation with the people that he surrounded himself with.

>> How did he meet Jodie? So, they both were working for a company called Legal Shield.

They met in 2006 at a work conference in Las Vegas.

Um, and that is an interesting part of all of this because nobody knew her before.

He liked to date different women.

He was trying to find his forever wife.

Um, and he was very instantly attracted to Jod when he met her.

She was very alluring, very pretty.

She seemed to share a lot of the same values.

And so he actually ended up bringing her to a dinner that night at the conference with his friends.

It was a dinner for basically like people who had performed well in the company, had made a lot of sales and had had done well and it was to celebrate their accomplishments.

And he brought Jod after meeting her that day and then that’s kind of where everything started.

>> And the friends immediately thought she was a bit off, didn’t they? >> Yeah.

I mean, they thought she was really nice at first, but pretty quickly after that, they realized she was pretty needy.

She just seemed Yeah.

that there was something more more there.

And and I think at first they didn’t quite know what that was.

They they sense something was off kind of like that gut feeling that you have when you know something’s kind of wrong, but you can’t quite pinpoint what it is.

>> That seemed to be the the way that they felt about Jod.

And then as time went on, I think they were able to determine that there was a neediness and a cliness that was unhealthy.

And that’s that’s where things kind of unraveled from there.

But yeah, at first they thought she was nice, she was pretty, but something was off.

How did their relationship evolve? What did it look like? Because they lived quite a fair way apart.

So it was a long-distance relationship at the beginning at least.

>> Yeah, most of the relationship was long distance because by the time she actually moved to Arizona, they had broken up.

So really their whole relationship was long distance.

So she was living in California and eventually in very northern California, like a remote wooded small part of California, not like a metropolitan area.

So it was even harder for her to get from there to FE or to Phoenix Mesa here where he was.

So they would often meet up at their friend Skye’s house who lived in Southern California.

It was kind of like a halfwayish point between and then they would go to work conferences and they would, you know, go to these kind of trips together and and things like that.

But a lot of their relationship honestly there was a lot of um you know Yahoo Messenger, AIM Messenger that was very popular at the time >> um and phone calls and things like that but it was very much uh you know she was trying to get him to I think commit more to her.

She wanted him to invite her out to to live in Arizona.

I think she always was looking for more and I think as they evolved she kind of had him under her finger a bit in terms of controlling the situation.

She’s very manipulative.

And so I think that she used sex and sex appeal as a way to keep him on his toes because she and Travis had this secret that they were having a sexual relationship which was very against the Mormon faith and Travis knew that and he was kind of perpetuating that too.

I mean prior to the murder these two had a very tumultuous toxic relationship that both of them played a part in.

So Travis, he was obviously partaking in this sexual relationship, but he felt bad about it or was keeping it a secret from his community.

What was happening there? >> You know, it’s a good question because I think there was I think both of those statements you just said were true.

I think he did feel bad about it knowing that that wasn’t part of his faith and he shouldn’t be doing it, but he liked it so much and he, you know, I don’t want to say he was addicted to it, but I think there was an allure there that he couldn’t escape.

and Jod knew it.

And so I think the two of them often would would get in these spats and then, you know, Jod would be like, “Well, you’re not going to get this from others.

” And and and Travis would fall in line with that, too.

You know, he had told her at one point, “I don’t think that I will ever be sexually fulfilled ever again because you’re so good.

” And she was able to use that time and time again.

And to be clear, Jod isn’t Mormon.

So having sex is fine as far as her religion is concerned.

>> Yes and no.

So she was not Mormon.

So yeah, at that time it was, but she ended up getting baptized to be Mormon by Travis.

>> Right.

Okay.

So So yes, she also knew that, but I think you know she was at that point she was in the anything for Travis.

I’m going to do anything.

She wanted to be his forever person.

And I think Travis knew that because of what they were doing, she wasn’t ever going to be that forever person.

Because ultimately, even though he was partaking in all of it, he was looking for a woman of Mormon faith who had the same values that he believed to, even if he wasn’t following them at the time.

On a surface level, hearing you talk about her, she sounds [snorts] like a normal woman in love who wants to be intimate with her partner, who wants to be close to him, who wants to move to be around him.

>> So, where does this toxicity come from? Is there any uh violence or abuse or anything like that that we know of within the relationship? So yeah, there was a lot of cat and mouse kind of taunting each other, breaking up, getting back together.

You did this, you’re horrible, but I I love this about you.

Things like that that a lot of 180 back and forth, flip-flop, flip-flop about, you know, how they felt about each other.

But I think where >> the action started coming into play was this um neediness that turned into almost stalking.

So when Travis would be in like a closed door conversation with his friends, Jod would wait outside the door listening.

She would show up at his house in the kitchen when he was with other girls after they broke up or when he was dating other women, which he Jod knew about.

She would crawl into his doggy door >> and into his bed naked.

um she would, you know, she would come to a party that she wasn’t invited to at his house and there was no room for her to stay and Travis told her that and Jod was like, “Oh, I’ll just sleep under the Christmas tree.

” Weird, weird things that are concerning.

And I think once Travis decided, “This isn’t for me.

” Jodie never really let that go.

She was always there trying to be like, “Pick me.

Pick me.

I’m here.

I’m here.

” And that’s where things I think started to go really downhill from from just like neediness to concerning behavior.

Can we back up a bit? Take us back to Jod’s life pre-T Travis because this behavior you’re talking about the more stalker tendencies.

You found evidence of that happening a lot earlier with other people.

>> Yeah.

And we didn’t know that.

You’re right.

Yeah.

before we did the documentary, there wasn’t a ton out there on Jod’s life before and and part of that was because her family has not been overly media friendly.

And I mean, I get it, right? This is a horrible crime.

So, >> there wasn’t a lot that we knew.

I mean, we we knew that there was some discourse with kind of her family.

I think there was, you know, she claimed that they would hit her with a spoon and there was definitely some allegations there that things weren’t weren’t perfect by any means, but we didn’t know a ton about her until we learned from a high school classmate of hers up in Huica, California, that there was some I don’t know, history repeating itself, so to speak.

So, in high school, she had had a boyfriend as well, and they broke up, and then a lot of people from high school called her, popping up outside his window, stalking him with other people as well.

And and that’s, you know, a little disturbing in and of itself, but it’s exactly what happened with Travis.

I think the way that I kind of deduced that after we learned it was just this is somebody who if she’s into somebody and she’s rejected or it doesn’t work and she still wants to be with them, she will stop at nothing to be still part of their life and try to make her way back in.

And I I think when we learned she she had other boyfriends, too.

In fact, there was one that ended up testifying in the trial.

It was somebody she dated before Travis.

But I think that that guy was fully in it with her and that may have been boring to her and eventually they broke up, but it was probably amicable because she she didn’t have the interest in that.

And I don’t think that he ever fully like rejected her as maybe this high school boyfriend did in Travis.

So, it does seem that she she had a real issue with with rejection or or loss of somebody she really wanted to be with and just had some control problems with with maybe processing and and self soothing on that.

Can you tell us a bit more about moving to be near Travis? Because you mentioned that she did that when they weren’t in a relationship.

So, that’s a pretty full in a pretty fullon thing to do.

She moves basically across the country and pops up around the corner from him and they’re not together.

>> How long did that last and what what did that look like? >> Not super long.

So, she she moved here.

I I think it was in like April that she had moved here.

She wasn’t here super long, but she had Yeah, they had broken up.

She moves here and Travis is like, “Why are you moving here? We we broke up.

” And I think she’s, you know, Jod’s smart.

She’s really smart.

And I think she knew, hey, I’ve got this thing that I can hold over Travis, and that’s sex.

And that’s a relationship that he’s not this type of relationship he’s not going to have with somebody of his faith.

And I think she thought the closer she was in proximity, the better chance she had about getting back with Travis.

And nothing was going to stop her.

So, she moves here.

And you know, that really stressed him out because I think they were still hooking up, but they they weren’t ever in a relationship.

And I think it was kind of the he she was never going to let him get away type thing.

But because they weren’t back together, and they didn’t get back together, she ended up moving back to Huica, California, um, a few months before the murder happened.

So, she wasn’t here very long.

And I don’t think it worked out in the way that she wanted in her favor.

her.

And so when it didn’t work out that way, she was like, “I guess I’ll go back.

” But when she moved back to California, it wasn’t super long after that that the the murder took place.

>> And they were still communicating during that time.

>> Absolutely.

Yep.

There was some back and forth.

She wanted Travis to visit her in Hua and he even said, “I don’t know if this is a good idea.

” Um, you know, I just know that there’s probably many fights that we would have.

I mean, they were constantly fighting.

And I think too, in addition to him not visiting her, he was also taking another girl to his Cancun trip, which was like a half fun trip, half work trip, and it wasn’t Jod.

And Jod knew that, and they were messaging about that in the days leading up to the murder, too.

So, I think he had moved on.

I don’t think Jod liked it.

And they had a big blow up about that, right? because you guys talk about this big fight that they have in kind of late May.

[sighs] Was it about Cancun? Was it about this lady? >> We I don’t think so.

We don’t know.

And that that’s kind of part of this issue.

There’s a lot of back and forth in that that late May fight about, you know, you’re a horrible person, this and that.

But the way that Travis’s friend describes that fight is that there was something that Jod was going to tell Travis in person.

She wouldn’t put it in writing.

there was possible legal implications.

It was odd and we don’t know if that conversation ever was had.

We don’t know what exactly it was about.

Was it, you know, was did she think or was somebody going to expose their relationship? Was there something she had done that was, you know, not not legal? We don’t really know.

And so that fight specifically is kind of a question mark, but Travis’s friend described that as everything really started going downhill with more fights and everything like that after that fight.

And she’s right.

She described that fight on May 26th.

And you can clearly see in emails and IM messages back and forth in the days after that and before Travis was killed, there was definitely some some discontent going on there.

So yeah, we don’t know.

We don’t know if that was in relation to Cancun or not.

We know that they had had some conversation about Cancun because he said he was going and she was asking and clarifying the dates, which I also think was, you know, clarifying the dates to know when he was going to be in Arizona and when he wasn’t.

And she knew when he was going to be here and when he was supposed to go to Cancun.

So, I think that once she learned that information, she did plan some of her her visit and then ultimate murder here because of it.

It brings us to the road trip that she’s taking or takes in early June.

>> Mhm.

>> And the plan is to head to Utah to meet another man, not Travis.

Can you tell us about what that road trip was supposed to look like? >> Yeah.

So, the the journal that Jod wrote in was very detailed leading up to the murder, too.

And ultimately, now we believe that she was trying to set up an alibi for herself.

So, we knew based on her journal that she was supposed to leave from Huica, California, so way north, and kind of go down the California coast before she was going to head east to Utah.

So, that was going to include some stops in I think Reading, Pasadena, California.

She stopped in the like the Monterey area and visited with an ex-boyfriend, Daryl.

That was named in the journal as well.

And then she would be going over to Utah to meet up with a guy named Ryan Burns who also was with the company.

The friends knew Ryan Burns.

They thought maybe they’d be a good match.

She had been talking to Ryan.

You could also see that in the journal.

And that was the plan.

There was also a work conference that was going on in Utah as well.

So basically, it was like a hit two birds with one stone.

I’m going to hang out with Ryan.

I’m going to see how that goes.

And I’m also going to be there for the work conference that all of these friends were all a part of.

So that’s how the road trip was supposed to go.

when she eventually turns up in Utah a day late, which is a very important part, >> what do the friends and Ryan notice about her? Because she looks very different.

Yes.

So, she had dyed her hair.

She used to be blonde.

She was now brunette.

But maybe even more shocking than that was that she came with a long sleeve shirt on and band-aids.

all on her fingers.

And they asked her like, “Jod, one, where were you? Two, why do you have all these band-aids on your fingers?” And her response there was that she was bartending or something and, you know, had gotten cuts on her fingers, which that’s a weird response in and of itself.

>> But after an entire day late, she said, >> “Well, right.

Yeah, she’s not a bartender.

” And and what was she doing? Like, and again, even if you did hit something, why would you have band-aids on multiple fingers? It just didn’t make any sense.

And the friends thought that was super weird, but they also knew she could be weird.

So, they were kind of like, okay, weird, but whatever.

>> On the road trip part of it though, she said that she, you know, she broke down and she got lost and her phone wasn’t charged and, you know, she had to get gas cans to fill up the gas in the car and she had to sleep on the side.

You know, all of that.

She she had an excuse for for all of this and that’s why she was late.

But what was also weird about this was not only was she late and had the band-aids on her fingers, but Jodie wants to be included in things, right? Like that’s her her MO is like, I want to be part of it.

I want to be this person that everybody wants to be with that they want to be around, especially especially the guys.

So when they were supposed to go four-wheeling the next day in the conference or after their conference meetings were wrapped up, she she leaves.

She doesn’t do the activity and the friends immediately clock that as weird, too.

Like Um, she would normally jump at the bit to be included and then spend more time with Ryan.

So, there was three weird things off the bat, right? The band-aids on the fingers, the long sleeve shirt, and it was hot.

It was summer.

She’s a whole day late and has this whole excuse for what’s going on with this road trip and why she was late.

And then she leaves early, which is unlike her, too.

And all of that happens.

And in her journal, she ends up writing, “Tut was amazing.

” with a bunch of exclamation points.

Wish I could have stayed longer.

So, it was a lot.

Okay.

So, this is around the 5th of June that she arrives in Utah.

When is Travis’s body found and how is his body found? >> So, his body wasn’t found for 5 days after that.

>> Five.

>> Um, this is Yeah, it’s one of the more perplexing parts of this case because he does have roommates >> and they were home and they didn’t realize what was going on.

And a lot of people have said, “Wait, wouldn’t he, you know, wouldn’t there start to be a smell?” >> Yeah.

>> And I think they all thought that this the smell that seeped in eventually was uh Travis’s dog, like maybe having an accident.

They just didn’t put two and two together.

And they’ve received a lot of flack for that.

Part of the reason though they didn’t put two and two together was because they thought Travis was supposed to be in Cancun.

So that’s what ends up playing the the part here.

>> Travis doesn’t show up in Cancun.

and he’s not even answering his phone for the work conference call and his friends immediately are like that’s not like Travis this is really weird.

So when he doesn’t answer the call and then he doesn’t show up in Cancun they’re super concerned understandably so.

So the friends call other friends back in Arizona saying hey can you go check on Travis? This is odd.

So they go to the house and and the roommate answers the door and they’re like have you seen Travis? Like where’s Travis? and he’s like, “He’s in Cancun.

” And the friends that went to the door were like, “No, he’s supposed to go to Cancun with me and he’s not answering.

We can’t find him anywhere.

” So eventually, one of the the friends is able to gain access to Travis’s bedroom door.

I don’t know if he had an extra key or he was able to like figure out how it was locked, but they go in there and they find a horrific scene.

Travis is dead in his shower.

He is completely bloody, stabbed 27 times.

He’s shot.

Um, and just a horrific scene.

He’s naked in the shower.

And they are just absolutely stunned.

I mean, at this point, they’re like, this is one a brutal overkill of a murder, >> but on top of that, who would have wanted to do that? And so pretty quickly after police get there, a lot of the friends start saying, “Oh, Jod, it’s how to be Jod.

” But when you look at Jod, this petite, you know, young, beautiful woman, and and then you look at the crime, it is very hard to compute how that person could pull off that crime on their own.

And so, of course, you know, police are taking in this information like, okay, they’re giving us this name, Jodi Aras, but there was going to have to be a lot more evidence collected to be able to prove something like that.

While combing through that crime scene, a camera was found.

Tell me about that cameras.

A lot a lot of uh questions were answered with that camera.

So, the camera’s found in the washing machine and it’s like one of those digital cameras from, you know, back in 2008 and it’s not working because it’s in the washing machine, but what I don’t think was realized was that you could extract the card from that, try to put that through forensics and see what you could find.

>> And what they found was very damning evidence.

So, on this digital camera, uh, there are pictures from that day that are timestamped.

The date is June 4th.

So this gives us now a a day.

Yeah.

Uh of of when something occurred.

So on the pictures there are naked pictures of Travis and Jod.

So clearly now you know that Jod and Travis have seen each other and they were having some fun sexual photo shoot or whatever they were doing in Travis’s room.

And that’s all fine and dandy until the pictures then in timestamps minutes later then show pictures accidentally taken where Travis is bleeding.

You see the crime scene.

There’s a few of those.

And then there’s this weird picture of a a pant leg that was clearly accidentally taken either dropping the camera or hit the button, something like that.

And they’re able to recover all of those.

And not only does that put Jodie there at the crime scene minutes before Travis is seen bloody, but it also was confirmed to be Jod’s pant leg.

And so now you have a person at the crime scene who’s the only person allegedly there.

And that became key for figuring out when Travis was killed and sort of what happened.

Then after that, they were able to collect DNA evidence and the DNA also matched Jod’s at the crime scene as well.

And so those two things combined really completely changed the investigation.

>> Well, that’s pretty damning evidence.

Were they able to arrest her? >> Sure.

>> Pretty quickly.

>> So, ye yes, but it did take some time.

So, she was still journaling after.

They had to wait for a bit for the DNA evidence to come back.

>> Yeah.

And that took some time, especially when you’re thinking I mean we we know DNA nowadays takes some time anyway to come back too.

And this is 2026 and that was 2008.

So they had to wait for that to come back.

But they definitely knew that she was there and they were going to use that to question her.

Meanwhile, she was still journaling and and and the journal after the murder is astonishing.

It’s like, “Oh my god, I learned something happened to Travis.

Oh my, this is heartbreaking.

I’ll never be able to go on.

Oh, Travis, I hear your voice.

who could do this.

I want the people to get the death penalty.

I mean, just acting as if she, you know, was anyone else learning about her friend getting killed.

Not that she was the killer.

>> And that when you look at it now and you know everything in hindsight, you’re like, >> “Oh my god, you I mean, you’re trying to give us an alibi, sure, but you were just playing it up, too.

” So once they get the DNA back and everything, they then send detectives up to Rica, California to question her.

And she denies, denies, denies.

She’s like, I don’t know how that’s my handprint on the wall in the blood.

I I wasn’t there.

That’s not my pant leg.

Why would I ever want to kill Travis? I could never do such a thing.

Uh she even has this one line in her interrogation video where she’s like, “If I if I wanted to kill him, I would use gloves.

I have so many of them.

” It’s like, okay, I sometimes I just think Jod was functioning in her own world and really thought that she could convince anybody of of her own version of things, her own truth.

Didn’t work.

She was eventually arrested for for first-degree murder.

That interrogation video, I have watched it and she does look very convincing for some of it in terms of she’s very sad.

She’s kind of spinning her side of the story and then the only way to describe it is it gets a bit weird.

Can you help articulate what I mean by that? Because would you agree it just gets a bit weird? >> Oh.

Oh, it’s extremely strange.

Yeah.

So, Detective Flores, you know, he he’s the one doing the questioning, but [snorts] sometimes, and I’ve seen this before in interrogations and and investigation techniques, they’ll leave the suspect by themselves in a room just to see what happens, right? You know, will they write anything? How will they act? Is there do they talk to themselves? You know, anything like that, just to see what happens.

So, when he leaves the room, Jod goes to like some other level where she is singing.

She’s singing multiple songs.

Um, and and like one of them has the lyrics that’s like, I I didn’t hear you breathe.

I wonder how you’re still here.

Like it’s just weird lyrics that just are creepy with the case itself.

But then she’s also singing Christmas carols.

>> And then she’s laughing to herself and then she at one point gets up and does a headstand on the wall and then gets back into singing.

It is very odd.

It it’s as if she was just her left to her own accord in her own living room.

Not a police interrogation where you’re being questioned for a brutal murder.

It was very bizarre behavior.

Yeah.

>> When I first watched that behavior, I thought, “Oh, that’s really strange.

” >> Yeah.

I think there was definitely some narcissism there and there was also some um personality disorder there.

And I think that that might help account for what was going on in that interrogation because I think that she would almost go into her own world and that’s how she would view the world.

So, you know, if she could convince herself that she was this person and oh, I’m just a girl and you know, I’m just like anybody else and all of that.

Yeah, I think that’s I think that’s played a huge part here.

Definitely unwell to the rest of us.

I think it just begs the question at that point in the case whether she knew what she was doing and was trying to set up that she was unwell or if she really felt that that was normal behavior at the time.

>> Yeah.

Right.

So, police had pretty solid evidence with the camera than the DNA.

There was also a gun involved that they were able to link back to her.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

They they believe they although I don’t believe they ever recovered it, right? >> But the gun that was used, they were able to match the casings though um to a gun that her grandparents had that went missing not long before the murders.

>> The same type of gun.

Once Jod was behind bars, she was quite happy to talk to the press, wasn’t she? She was Well, [clears throat] tell me about that.

She was usually when someone’s been charged with a crime that serious, they kind of go to ground because it might affect their court proceedings.

But she was quite open with media.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

I I laugh because like this is where the case really just starts to heat up in salacious and like almost unbelievable things that unfolded next.

This is really where it started.

So, yeah, she gets she gets arrested for first-degree murder and immediately starts doing jailhouse interviews, which yes, you’re right.

We don’t typically get defendants I mean, defense lawyers never want their defendants to do interviews before a trial because yeah, you could compromise the case and what they say then could be used in the trial against them.

>> But she’s like, “Nope, I’m doing it.

” So, she does all these different jail house interviews.

And at first, she starts with her first version of the case, which is I wasn’t there that day.

I wasn’t there.

It wasn’t me.

I was told about it.

I’m sad about it.

But no evidence will show that that was me and that I killed Travis.

That was version number one.

Mhm.

>> Then she went to a different version which was, “Well, I was there, but I got away and unfortunately two masked intruders killed Travis, >> right?” >> And it was awful and there are two killers out there on the loose and this was a horrific thing that happened to him.

So then we had that version of events for a bit and then ultimately she changed her story for a third time once the trial started and that was I killed him in self-defense.

He abused me.

I was worried for my life and I had to kill him in order to survive.

>> Yeah.

>> Obviously that version of events becomes her story.

Can we just go back to the evidence for a minute? Was there any evidence that it could have been self-defense? >> I mean, no.

Her defense team needed to look for something, right? It’s very hard to defend against your DNA and photographic evidence of you at a crime scene.

I mean, that’s right, like nail in the coffin for a defense team.

So, they had to come up with something.

And I think there was a toxic enough back and forth between Jod and Travis that they could try to point to that Travis was just as bad as Jod.

And had had she not acted in that time, you know, it was either going to be Travis or Jod that died >> and Jod fought back.

The problem with that defense is that you can’t really convince a jury ever.

Even if you want to say that she was abused, really hard to convince a jury or anybody with a sound frame of mind that self-defense was 27 stab wounds and a shot to the head because it’s a very vicious, horrific murder.

And I guess what you’re saying is if someone is fleeing for their life and terrified, they’re not going to go to that extent.

Is that what you mean? >> Exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, if you’re really fighting for your life and you have a gun, I think one one gunshot would do the trick into the head.

But even if you’re stabbing somebody in self-defense, again, 27 times was far past what it would take to defend yourself from him, he would have been subdued >> well before that level of of overkill.

And and I think too, you know, there was they really played this abuse factor up and they had to try to convince the jury and and the jury did, you know, consider that they they did think about it.

They did look at it.

They did talk about it.

There were some people that felt there might have been some emotional abuse, some verbal abuse, but nobody ever found any signs of physical abuse.

And I think that also too played a massive part in what the jury would ultimately decide.

In your documentary, you do a really damning interview with the cellmate of Jodie, who >> Jodie basically confessed to in terms of murdering Travis.

Can you describe that chat? Because she said some >> wild things about the way Jod described that.

>> Oh, totally.

Yeah.

I thought our interview with Donovan was really interesting.

So Donovan was a cellmate of Jod’s at the time she was in the jail.

So that’s an important time frame because that’s when Jod was doing those jail house interviews.

It was before the trial ever began.

So it wasn’t like she was in prison after.

This was before everything leading up to to the salacious trial.

So yeah.

Um Donovan described Jod as being very nice, very sweet.

Uh they had both never been in trouble before.

So, I think they kind of bonded over that.

But she described what Jod said as uh Travis being the Terminator that he wouldn’t die.

>> And Jod did tell tell Donovan, you know, I was he was horrible to me and this and that.

And so Donovan as her friend at the time had a very negative reaction to Travis as well.

But yeah, she described it as he was a Terminator.

He wouldn’t die.

And she always wanted to be so perfect for the media cameras and TV and always wanted kind of to be this well-known person out there.

And so I think that’s how those two forged a relationship.

So much so that Donovan ended up becoming what they called Jod’s Twitter manager during the trial.

and Jodie would call Donovan on the phone mid-trial and and have her write these things on behalf of her on Twitter like about the prosecutor and like calling Emmy had like you know little man syndrome and things like that and and so that just also took everything to a whole new level as well because not only did she confide in Donovan about you know hey he wouldn’t die and he was this and that but then she also was having Donovan play this role of of basically aiding in this trial becoming even more salacious with what she was wanting to put out there to the public.

Let’s talk about the trial because it’s been described as a live soap opera or the Super Bowl of court >> in terms of media attention.

>> It was insane.

There are people everywhere.

Can you paint that picture for us? Because if people haven’t seen the footage, there are hundreds of people waiting outside court like they’re going to >> I’ve a concert.

>> I’ve I’ve really never seen anything like it.

The only thing I can really compare it to recently in recent times is the Karen Reed trial outside of Massachusetts where there were so many people that were out there supporting her, kind of lining the streets for her.

>> But and and that’s pretty rare, too.

Even with high-profile cases now, there’s typically not like groves of of people outside, you know, like there that’s not where everything is.

But with this, yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Looking at the footage, so, you know, I was in high school at the time this happened and I I’d heard of it, but I wasn’t paying attention like like I would be now as a as a true crime journalist.

>> Going through that footage is some of the more shocking things I’ve seen in this career.

Yes, there were.

So, first off, there were cable news shows were really popular at the time.

Nancy Grace, HLN, things like that.

So, those cable shows that would run uh you know, a lot of hours in the day were setting up nearby with well what was like a concert like stages, bleachers, big lights that you would see if there was like a singer, spotlights, all that.

They were getting ready for full show productions because there was so much interest in the case.

So you had that side of things.

So you had all this media there and they were lined up everywhere outside the courthouse, the streets, across the street, the courtyard nearby and then you just had all these people who wanted to be there for history and watch this unfold.

And I guess the way that I would describe that is you don’t have it now where you know there’s a live stream options all the time and you could just do that.

You you had to either watch on TV or you were there in person, I guess.

And so, yeah, there was people running all over and and waiting in this lottery line to get into the courtroom.

Like, people really viewed this as like a top tier exclusive show.

And they all wanted to be part of the action.

I’ve never really seen anything like it.

And there were people who were like, “Oh my gosh, just to be here and to even be chosen to go into this lottery, even to go through security, that would have been enough for me.

I I’ve never I’ve just not seen anything.

” You would have thought you were talking to people who had just gotten chosen to be front row at a Taylor Swift concert.

It was >> unreal.

And it only got bigger and bigger and crazier and crazier as this went on, especially eventually when Jodie took the stand herself because typically a defendant doesn’t take the stand.

And so then you really had people coming.

I mean, they wanted to watch what was going on.

And and what would happen to is if they weren’t chosen to be part of the audience, this group of people who would come from wherever would then go to a nearby restaurant, watch this trial live on HLN or whatever else on the TV and talk about it and have like a lunch gathering to hang out and and be part of it that way.

It was so crazy.

I can’t help but think of Travis’s family as you describe that because >> yeah, >> at the end of the day, like this is something horrific that has happened to someone they love and they’re arriving at a courtroom to see >> the person that they think killed their loved one see justice and they’ve got groupies and people kind of >> frothing to hear the latest information.

That must have been really bloody hard.

>> I think it was almost a catch 22 for them.

Yeah.

Here here they are showing up to court and I mean not just showing up for a couple weeks.

This trial went on for months and months and then continued on for years after that in the penalty phase.

So this was agonizing having to go in and to see all this evidence and be a part of it.

Yeah.

To them this wasn’t a show.

This was real life.

And so on one hand you had them dealing with that.

However, there was something to it where they felt that Travis had such a magnetic personality that there were people out there supporting him.

I mean, they were so anti-Jod.

They were Yeah.

They were in it for the salacious details, but they were anti- Jodie.

And so, his friends and family were at least able to look at that and say, “Wow, look at all this support for Travis.

” That’s true.

Look at all of these people who want justice for Travis.

And I think at least among something that was so in incredibly uncomfortable to be part of that, they could at least see the fact that these people all wanted the same thing that they wanted, which was justice for their brother.

>> Yeah.

You mentioned that Jod took the stand, which a lot of defendants don’t do.

They’re often advised not to do.

>> Jod was on the stand for 18 days.

>> What did she talk about? What what is the biggest takeaway from her being on that stand? >> What didn’t she talk about? Really, I think ends up being the the question.

So, that’s still to this day longest longest a defendant’s ever taken the stand in their own trial in US history.

>> Wow.

>> Uh that is pretty crazy when you think about how long ago that was to now.

>> You know, it’s Yes.

Typically, defendants do not take the stand and typically defense attorneys don’t want them to take the stand, right? because now they could say anything and that could completely compromise the case.

But in this specific case, if they wanted the jury to believe that Jod suffered from abuse, the most powerful person to try to convince them of that was going to be Jod herself.

And they knew it.

It was like a Hail Mary.

Like, if we’re going to have any shot at this at all, throw her on the stand.

So, you know, she talked about her past relationships and and how it was with Travis and how she was sad and this and that and she described the murder, but where it really got fiery was when the prosecutor, Juan, Martinez, who was fiery in and of himself, got up there and cross-examined her.

I mean, and he had her acting out how she, you know, how Travis was a linebacker attacking her and she had to get away.

And he had her acted out in court.

And, you know, he would really question her on her uh lapses in memory that she seemingly had according to her.

You know, you remember these things, but you can’t remember stabbing him.

You can’t remember shooting him.

You can’t remember driving away from the scene.

And so he was really trying to poke holes in the fact that she selectively was choosing what to remember, what not to remember, what she claimed she did, what she claimed she didn’t, and and that’s where people I mean people were tuning in to see the back and forth between Jod and Juan Martinez.

>> Do you think her evidence that she gave helped her case? Was she convincing? >> No.

You know, she might have been convincing if she had been on the stand for less days, but I think the longer you’re up there, the almost more comical and and more TV soap opera it got because it was it was you can’t do yourself a lot of favors when you’re going over and over on all this and then ultimately ends up kind of becoming more about the showdown between her and one bickering with each other and trying to one up the other rather than the actual ual trial itself and the actual issue itself, which for Jod was, hey, I was abused and I was defending myself.

So, no, I I don’t think that it helped.

I I think that they should have taken her off the stand far sooner.

And I that was probably an error on the defense’s part, but I think they thought, look, if if anybody’s going to convince the jury of anything emotional like abuse, it was gonna have to come from Jod herself.

I ask that because the jury deliberated for a long time.

They asked a lot of questions from the judge.

So, it wasn’t a cleancut decision for them.

>> It took them a long time.

Really? >> Yeah, you’re right.

It did.

And >> I don’t think they No, nobody nobody seemed confused on whether or not she did it.

I think that was obvious.

And even the defense, I mean, even in their opening statements, they said, “Look, there’s no doubt Jod did this.

” So, that was never really the issue.

It was more so the intent and what happened that day.

And they would need to decide whether they were going to, you know, uh, convict on a first-degree murder charge, were they going to lessen it to seconddegree, were they going to lessen it to manslaughter? That’s really what they had to figure out.

I think she was successful in at least putting some reasonable doubt in some of the juror’s minds that there may have been abuse, at least verbal abuse.

Yeah.

>> Based on the toxicity of the relationship and that’s what I mean at the end of the day that is what the defense was trying to do.

Can you can you give any sort of reasonable doubt to the prosecution story? And I think that that was what they were going for.

So there were some jurors who who were considering that and yes they asked a lot of questions of the judge which is also pretty rare.

Usually those are more clarifying questions if if anything like can we use this for that or that for this and >> almost more protocol based.

Yeah.

>> But they asked like a hundred questions.

Wow.

>> And that was interesting too.

And so yeah so the judge would read them to Jod.

>> Jod would answer and then they would listen from there.

And I think they wanted Jod to know that they were like, “Why should we believe your story now? You’ve lied about X, Y, and Z.

That’s been proven in the trial.

So why should we believe you now?” Questions along those lines.

But ultimately, yeah, they described the two jurors we interviewed described putting all these postits all around the room and really getting in there the deliberation room to say, “Okay, here’s what evidence we have.

Here’s what we think.

” And yes, ultimately, I think they wanted to make sure that they were making the right decision.

They also knew by convicting her of first-degree murder and finding her guilty of that that now they were going to have to figure out if this was a death penalty case or not, if she would be executed or not.

And I think all of them when they were deliberating even in that the the guilty phase knew what was on the line with this case overall and that was death or not.

>> Yeah.

Right.

Which is something that is foreign to us here in Australia.

We don’t have the death penalty.

We haven’t for yeah many many decades.

So it is you know quite shocking to hear that this is what’s next in this case.

She is found guilty of murder one and then they do need to deliberate and do basically a whole new trial in sentencing to work out whether >> y >> she’s going to die for it.

Can you >> take us through that phase because it it >> it was basically like a mini trial in terms of impact statements from both sides, her pleading her case as to why she should get life and not the death penalty.

And then the jury, the same jury has to decide that.

Yeah.

I I guess I didn’t even think about that in Australia.

This this part of it probably never happens.

So yeah, here when you are found guilty of first-degree murder and it’s a capital case and not every first-degree murder case is a capital case.

In this specific case and with death penalty cases, the Maropa County Attorney’s Office must give a notice of intent to seek the death penalty if they feel that that’s just and if they want to go forward with that.

>> So that was sought first and they went forward with that.

So we knew going into this trial that this was a death penalty case.

So once she’s found guilty, then yes, it it’s like a second mini trial, just like you said.

And the reason for that is because the the first burden of proof that they had in the first one was whether she did it or not.

But now the question at hand is does she deserve to die or not.

And there’s a lot more at stake with that when you’re talking about a human life in that regard.

And so the the burden of proof then is on the prosecution to prove to the jury that she should deserve to die based on all of these what would be aggravating factors in the case.

And the penalty phase also deals with the more emotions of of who somebody is, the character of somebody.

And that’s where things can get a lot more emotional on our end here in the United States because you have family members who will give vict victim impact statements.

The defendant can also talk more freely.

So, right, Jod has to answer the questions at hand in the the guilty phase of this when she’s on the stand, but she also has an ability in the the sentencing phase to kind of give her impact statement as well.

And so Travis’s family felt that she should die.

And and that was based off of the set of legalities here in Arizona of you know what meets the ex the the the burden of a death penalty proof or death penalty case.

And legally based off of the evidence at hand, it fit a lot of those parameters.

So those include like was was the crime unusually cruel and depraved? >> Yeah.

>> Yes.

>> Yes.

>> But some of them it didn’t hit you know um oftentimes it might be like was there multiple victims in this case? No.

So so they they have to look at those set of factors and each side has to prove why or why not somebody should you know be executed or have their life spared in life in prison.

there was no other option other than death or life in prison for a first-degree murder um conviction here in Arizona.

And so there was a lot more so to speak on the line for the jurors when looking at this case and deciding what they were going to have to do and they deliberate again just like they do in that first phase to decide whether or not it’s going to be death.

Well, it ended up taking them two goes.

The first time wasn’t unanimous and the second time it also wasn’t unanimous but 11 to one and she ended up getting life in prison.

What does life in prison look like in Arizona? Is that your natural life? Is that like how many years is that? What does that look like? >> So she got life in prison without the possibility of parole.

So that would be in this case in until the end of her life unless she wins something on appeal.

So, as far as her case goes now, she is appealing.

She’s she lost one appeal.

She’s in the middle of another appeal.

She has been writing in her blog um recently in the past week about how she isn’t happy with attorneys and she’s looking for new counsel and she’s going to seek a habius case as well.

Um and to kind of put that in perspective, explain what that means.

In Arizona, when you get a a life in prison sentence and you are appealing, that’s called postconviction relief or PCR.

And typically, you’ll exhaust as many appeals as you can if if you are trying to get out or trying to change things.

And if that doesn’t work and all of those fail, then you can move on to what could be a habius case.

Um, people most recently have probably heard that with the Menendez brothers who claimed that there was new evidence.

And so if there was a habius case, they would request a new trial.

In this case, she’s using the habius to say that evidence was destroyed uh or gotten rid of by the prosecutor and the lead detective and that her constitutional rights were violated through the trial.

Therefore, because of this, she should get be granted a new trial.

and she’s going to point to the fact that the both the prosecutor and the defense attorney in this case were both disbarred after this trial over things that happened during or after the trial that related to this case.

So that’s what she’s working on from a legal front.

From a day-to-day front, we know what she’s doing because she runs a Substack blog blog called Just Jodie where she’s detailing her life and her thoughts and her feelings and all of that.

And honestly, I’m surprised she has as much access to things as she does >> as far as the blog goes when she is posting it.

She doesn’t have access to the actual site of Substack, >> but she can email people back and forth, which is how she was able to email me.

And that’s through a like a secure prison email chain uh email program, and she sends that to somebody in the outside who then post the blog.

But she writes about doing a lot.

I mean, she has access to a lot of baking ingredients and utensils and things.

She’s baking elaborate desserts.

She’s researching.

She says she listens to podcasts.

She talks great in great detail about how she’s using AI and chat GPT to do certain things.

She reads a lot.

She she has worked in the library for many years in there.

So, she she reads a lot.

Um, I mean, she’s definitely paying attention to what is happening in the outside world and seems to have a fair amount of access to research things.

In prison, a lot of them have a tablet and that’s how they’re able to get online in some form or fashion when it’s allowed.

Um, she has a pet pigeon named April that she write writes about.

I don’t know if she not sure if it’s just like a bird that exists in there and she calls it hers.

>> Yeah.

>> But she writes about that.

So, I mean, she’s definitely doing things in prison.

I know she’s led um some singing competitions in there.

Um she’s done some Yeah.

some singing.

She even did singing competitions in the jail before she was went to trial.

She did like something called Inmate Idol where they like sang for judges like American Idol.

Very very odd.

Um but yeah, she still sings.

So, yeah, that that’s the you know, we know about what her life is like kind of from a dayto-day because she’s writing about it.

She’s putting it out there for people who want to still follow her life.

I mean, she did have >> a fair amount of fans, too, who either don’t think she deserved this, don’t think she did, or still want to follow her because they >> I mean, think she’s pretty and alluring and they they, you know, free Jod is a thing.

So, that’s what we know kind of about where she stands in terms of what her personal life is like in prison and then also where her legal life is in prison, too.

I do want to back up a second because there was a particular moment that I found quite shocking and probably everyone would find quite shocking was that after that sentence came down and she was given life in prison, she said something to Travis’s family who were there, the family and friends were there to hear what would happen to her.

What did she say to them? Yeah, they relayed that she looked at them after the sentence and said he was alive when I slit his throat.

awful, awful, shocking, hurtful, spiteful.

Yeah, I think I think that was said with some some intent and that’s why people are so frustrated with these appeals and you know her pointing to even trying to get a habous case out of this because it’s hard for people to understand that she could you know even potentially get a reduced sentence or anything or try to point to a new trial solely based on the trial itself protocols and what happened and what you know what other attorneys did.

given the fact that she admitted she killed him and then she said something like that.

I mean, no one looks at that comment and says, “Oh, yeah, that’s somebody that we should review it and see if everything went as planned.

” Like, that’s an evil comment.

It’s an evil person.

It’s an evil act.

And there’s not one person that looks at that and says, “Oh, yeah.

Let’s let’s relook at that case.

Make sure everything went according because maybe she should be out out from behind bars.

” That comment was obviously off record, though.

So, do you think she has a chance with these appeals? So, I interviewed an attorney unrelated to the case, uh, at least the trial portion of it about this because I I asked the same thing, right? I mean, Jod can say what she wants from behind bars and blog, but is any of it really legit? And is there a chance? There’s always technically a chance.

>> Yes.

It doesn’t help that the attorneys were disbarred over different things.

Kirk Nurmy, her defense attorney, wrote a tell- all book about him and his relationship and things that were said in client confidentiality.

So that violates the attorney client privilege.

So that’s why he was disbarred.

Juan Martinez had a slew of different issues.

He, you know, reportedly committed prosecutorial misconduct by feeding a a a blogger at the time of the trial information and then allegedly having a relationship or some sort of sexual relationship with that blogger.

He also reportedly uh talked to a dismissed juror on the case and he ultimately agreed to be disbarred um over over everything.

So yeah, I mean does she have a chance on in that on that front specifically? Maybe.

But the reality is it’s really hard to prove intent that that the detective and the prosecutor would have intentionally gotten rid of damning evidence that would have saved her X Y and Z.

And it’s hard to prove that what happened during the trial and right after would have changed the outcome >> of her conviction.

So, the likelihood of her given what happened, right? Given how this went, given that she admitted to killing him, Yeah.

the likelihood of her getting out, slim to none.

Yeah.

But >> you never know.

And that specific aspect of you just don’t know is what has people very concerned that there could be a chance.

High chance.

No.

>> A chance.

Sure.

>> Yeah.

You snuck in there that you had contact with her.

You did try and get an interview with her.

How did that go? >> I did.

So, I had actually emailed her before, too.

Even before I pursued the documentary, I think I I knew we had a couple high-profile inmates here.

And as as a true crime journalist and reporter, I always want to hear all sides of the story.

And especially given now that true crime is is such a a genre that interests so many people.

I think doesn’t really matter how old a case is.

People want to hear how people involved in the case feel now.

And and there is a fascination whether people like it or not with hearing what a defendant, a killer has to say about a case.

And I truly believe too that we can learn from these people to you know things to look for certain personality traits certain beliefs that we then can you know learn from and hopefully study so that we can prevent these things from happening in the future.

The only way we can learn that is to actually ask them their side too.

So I knew I wanted to interview her for this if I was going to do a whole documentary about her and her psychology.

Of course, I wanted to talk to Jod.

And of course, I wanted to be there with her either in person or over the phone.

Now, that’s part of this, too.

I knew that interviewing Jod was going to be a bit of a different kind of interview if I even could here in Arizona.

While while we can do jailhouse interviews depending on who’s heading up the jail in the county, >> prison interviews here are not allowed um on camera in person and they typically don’t even grant video visits.

Though that’s a little different now because these inmates have these tablets.

They can just reach out to people.

>> So I knew my only options were going to be either visit Jod in person in the prison like a visitation and take notes.

Yeah.

No recording, no camera, no audio, nothing.

And that would have been my number one choice.

Even though I couldn’t record it, I wanted to get, you know, in front of her in person.

I could at least relay what I had learned and what I had noticed and picked up.

>> But the other option would have been a phone interview.

And that was my other goal.

>> Now, she didn’t respond for a while.

And I knew I I had reached out to her defense team that’s conducting the appeal now to first go through that channel, right? Like I was going to ask them, I wanted to do everything right.

They were very like, “No, no, no.

She will not be doing anything.

We will not be doing anything.

We have no comment.

Don’t contact her.

You know, shut it down.

” Basically, they didn’t want us even doing the documentary.

Obviously, that’s not their choice, but I thought I was going to, you know, I’d message her personally, too, and just see.

And she did eventually email me back and said, you know, was very friendly and said, “Hi, I’m so so glad you reached out.

I’m so sorry I didn’t respond sooner.

you know, my I would love to tell you about my life in Perryville prison and you know about everything here, but my attorneys won’t allow me.

They’re protecting me as attorneys do.

I’m so sorry.

And and I told her I had read her blog and she was like, “Thank you so much for subscribing to my blog.

I think it’s a great place to get exclusive content about my life that no one else can get.

I I appreciate you reading.

you know, if you have any questions or want me to write about anything, um, let me know and I’ll consider those topics in the future and if anything changes with my attorneys, I’ll let you know.

Thanks again for reaching out.

Take care, Jody.

>> So, very courteous.

>> Oh, she was very polite, very friendly.

Yeah.

What did you conclude? You Yeah, I was gonna say I ended up responding back and I asked her a few different things.

to actually I I had a couple questions in mind already just knowing how she operates knowing that she wasn’t probably going to address the case itself.

So I came up with some questions and then I also um asked AI what would be the best questions to ask a narcissist.

>> Oh, and I ended up Yeah.

I ended up emailing her back some topics like if you could go back and redo something in your life, what would it be? What are your greatest accomplishments in life? And on the other side of that, what do you feel like have been your biggest downfalls or your biggest failures? What would be advice to yourself now? You know, things like that.

Yeah.

Um, and to this day, she still has not addressed, she did not email me back and she still has not addressed my specific questions in her blog, but she’s writing more.

Um, she’s I’ve already there’s already been a couple entries just even in the new year.

So, I’m hopeful that at some point we might hear answers to those questions.

And I also I re recently just emailed her because she’s been complaining about her attorneys and wanting new counsel.

So, I thought, well, if she fires them or if they leave the case, >> maybe there’s an in between time there where she’s going to want to say something and talk to me.

You just never know.

You never know.

But, she likes attention and she likes sharing her life.

So, um I’m hopeful maybe still down the road.

>> Yeah.

with your documentary, you aimed to look at the psychology.

That was what you were looking at with Jod.

What did you conclude? We touched on earlier, you know, there’s a bit of there’s a few different personality disorders potentially in there, but looking back at it all through a 2026 lens, what did you conclude about the psychology of Jod and what she did? Yeah, I I think from the 2026 lens, clearly there’s a personality disorder there and she could not handle rejection and she could not handle somebody, a man that she wanted choosing somebody over her.

>> Yeah.

And I think that that was so dangerous that she could not control herself and thought, “Well, I’m going to be the last person he was with and I’m going to I’m going to take action here.

” You know, did she go to his house with the intent to fully kill him like she did in this way? We’ll never know.

I don’t think she’ll ever talk about that.

>> Yeah.

But she has such a strong personality disorder and a strong sense of narcissism that I think she convinced herself that this was the best plan and that it he will never be with somebody else and if he’s going to reject me then I’ll be the last person he’s going to be with.

And and I think that that is the kind of person that she is.

I think she she feels that she can convince anybody of her beliefs and that they’ll believe her.

>> And she writes in this very specific tone, this very specific style that’s a bit like holier than thou kind of picking apart holes at everybody else.

And it very much still resonates that in a lot of instances in her life even now that she’s really the victim.

>> Yeah.

>> And I don’t think she’s capable because of her personality disorder of of seeing the true reality of the situation.

And that makes her a really really scary person in a in a different way than people you know might think scary.

you think scary and you think big and >> you know you would attack.

But she’s incredibly smart.

She’s incredibly manipulative and highly highly intelligent but couldn’t get out of her own way on a personality side of things.

And and I think that that’s ultimately where this all >> all lies.

I wanted to end with Travis’s loved ones, his friends and family.

Obviously with such a big case with her name being at the center of it all and she’s still getting attention with this blog.

Have they been able to move on in the years since the sentence and since everything died down a little bit? >> Yeah, I I think that that’s a a kind of a two-pronged answer.

Um, you know, obviously when we reach out I mean and I’m keenly aware of this too as a journalist, right? When you reach out to family and friends who were very affected by a horrific crime, you know that reaching out to them could trigger those emotions for them could be a bit upsetting.

Um to to counteract that though, a lot of times victims, family and friends want to share more about their loved one and it’s almost cathartic and healing for them to know that their loved one is not forgotten.

I think that exists here.

There’s been some family dynamics within the Alexanders where some of them would like to do more interviews and some of them would not and that’s caused some family strife for sure.

So I think while while it’s hard to see these things happen and they’re I mean everybody is pissed about the blog, no doubt.

Yeah.

>> Um and the friends didn’t know that she had a blog until we told them.

So not that it’s a secret, but just some didn’t know that.

So I think that’s really upsetting for sure.

There was definitely, you know, to be able to remember Travis and to share again the kind of boisterous person, infectious smile, laughter, personality person he was, that brings them joy still.

Yeah.

And remembering him.

But I think there’s been a lot of sadness with all of them growing up and going through the life phases of getting married and having kids and and knowing that Travis didn’t get that opportunity.

That is heartbreaking.

And they now see it as they go through the different phases in life.

But I do think they’ve been able to move forward some for sure.

And I think people got a lot of therapy.

They they knew they had to move on and that Travis would want them to live their lives big.

I mean, he lived his life big and >> they know that Travis would want them to do the same.

But is there lasting impacts in all of their lives? Yeah, there’s trauma there that has affected many aspects of their lives, both the family and the friends.

And I don’t think that ever goes away, but I think that there’s a part that they want to live in Travis’s honor, the way that he would have lived his life.

And and I think that that’s something that they try to live for every We