The Husband Who Played Grieving Widower After Killing His Wife

…

I mean, I think it’s nice actually, uh, working in TV and and newspapers.

I mean, I always I I was a print journalist in my origin, so I’ve always loved that aspect of it.

Um, but TV allows a bit of personality to come through and as does radio, more so radio.

Um, but you’ve got such a short amount of time and also you’ve got a bit of a a persona or you know that you have to present, you know, professional just Yeah.

Yes, that’s right.

your news voice.

And so I think I think it’s a really good thing or I like it anyway is being able to tell people like you’re having a conversation >> um in as a normal person as opposed to a a jouro you know sort of you know pontificating sometimes I feel like we we you know it’s not it’s not doesn’t come but it’s just official you’re just getting the information out there you’re you know it isn’t it isn’t as personable >> I think as a society At least we’re getting better at telling the stories or expanding on the topics of things like narcissism and gaslighting and coercive control.

Whereas a lot of these cases that you’re revisiting back in the day, we didn’t kind of have that vernacular.

>> We certainly didn’t.

even though I’d been in this space for such a long time, but talking to the experts and these are the people who, you know, the academics that sit down there and study the theory and look at cases and and I feel like I was offered the red pill in the matrix and I took it and now I’m just like this all knowing like, you know, understanding and I and it it’s like we’ve been gaslit all our lives >> like with these cases.

um that whole idea and and Jay Monkin Smith, oh my gosh, she’s amazing.

She invented the homicide timeline and she talked about it, you know, crimes of passion, you know, being this idea like they’d rationalize it like you just snapped, lost control, like it was not something that was intentional.

Um these people, they didn’t mean it, you know.

[laughter] And now when you look at the homicide timeline, yes, they did mean it.

And it was a a eight factor journey for them that led to them planning and ending somebody’s life.

>> Can you tell us a bit about that homicidal timeline? Because that is something that you focus quite heavily on in your investigation.

>> What does that even mean for people that are like what? >> Yeah.

A homicide.

Well, so it’s eight stages starting with, you know, the isolation and the the um building, you know, the love bombing, all that sort of thing.

First, I guess the first step for a perpetrator is to ent trap um the victim.

And when you think about it, um we particularly my generation, we grew up thinking Prince Charming, you know, you’d meet your soulmate one day.

It was very romantic, fairy tale, idolized idea of what love was.

And so getting that um swept off your feet um which is still a re reality, right? We’re not I guess it the hard thing is making the distinction and understanding the difference between being swept off your feet and love bombing.

Um, so Jane Monton Smith during in our series explains that way better than I can, but it is very much um if it’s moving too fast um if they say I love you early.

I mean again, you know, because we’re all a bit idolistic about love and what’s love to one person isn’t necessarily to another.

So there’s no harm in that happening, but it’s more than the control aspects.

and she used one example which obviously I feature in the series and I don’t want to give too much away but and as I said definitely worth watching her tell it compared to me but where the girl and and guy were going out on a date was early on in their relationship and she you know he comes to pick her up and she gets in the car and he goes what are you wearing and I can’t do it she doesn’t have this great accent and she’s like what you know [laughter] what what do you mean and he’s you know, are you trying to embarrass me? Are you trying to humiliate me and attract other men and you know, sort of you look like a [ __ ] you know, like this is again early on, >> you know, and she said this is a real story.

And so she goes back in and changes and then they go out and have the best most romantic time.

Everything was lovely.

It was like, you know, the fairy tale sort of thing.

And then she says that is introducing one of the rules then.

So what do you think would happen if she wore that dress again? >> You know, so all of a sudden the jealousy rule has come in and it’s a control mechanism.

It turns back on the the woman and and I know this and I don’t want this to be seem like where it’s a man hating exercise.

It’s not that.

But there’s a problem in Australia and globally and the statistics say this that we um we have a woman being killed in an intimate intimate partner homicide uh once a week on average in Australia.

Once a week.

>> It’s crazy.

And it’s been for years and years and years.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

>> It’s not changing.

>> Yeah.

It’s actually increasing because once a week, you know, it’s so many days, right? So it was eight days and now it’s like four days, you know.

So um yeah, it’s just incredible.

Um and globally it’s one in three women globally will experience domestic family or sexual violence.

So that’s globally as well as the fact that in Australia in the past two years according to domestic family violence sexual violence commission um it’s increased by 10% in the past two years.

10%.

That’s that’s a lot.

Yeah, it is a lot.

So, it’s so important to understand why this is happening and why the messages aren’t getting through.

And I I think you then have to look at the way it’s treated on the front line.

And of course, we we we’ve reported so much on AVOs and the revolving door of the offenders who breached them just going in and out.

And that Tyrone Thompson, which we feature, is a prime example of the victim, Mackenzie Anderson, could not have done more to prevent herself from getting killed.

She did all the right things.

The [ __ ] kept he breached eight times.

Eight times.

And then he got out again and two weeks later he killed her.

He told people he was going to kill her, you know.

Um she moved away.

She did everything she could and then he come in and he killed her.

And then they still didn’t consider it premeditated or, you know, it still was considered mid-range violence even though he stabbed her 78 times.

And so I wanted to go in to explore that because it’s it’s legalistic, right? And so when when we when we deal with it, we’re seen as a bit simple in not understanding the legal uh you know aspects and how the legal system works.

So I did I spoke to to experts to try to understand and I think you know so that people knew what was the issues and why they kept coming up and and you know we’ve got explanations there from Chief Justice Bell about the [ __ ] and the bail applications and and then there’s that argument of course that we don’t have prisons enough prisons to put them away.

And so then I just I just wonder though why women have to lose their lives when all the signs are there that that’s going to happen and that’s just like oh damn it, you know, I mean that gets me.

>> I want to use the story of Karen Revski to further explore what we’re talking about because her story is quite a unique one in the context of what we’re talking about.

Firstly, for those that don’t know what happened to Karen, can you tell us a little bit about how her case first made headlines, what her story was? >> Well, with Karen, it was a prolonged process because I guess I like to compare it to the way that the Jared Bade and Clay, Allison Bait and Clay case sort of because it’s very similar in a lot of ways.

>> There are a lot of similarities.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

with the husband, the grieving husband, um, and >> reporting their wives missing.

>> Like it it there when you look at them side by side, Boros, who is Karen’s husband, reports her missing.

Jared reports Allison missing.

>> Yeah.

>> They come out to the public, grieving husband, very vocal.

>> Yeah.

So, the difference is is with Boris and Karen, sadly, it took a lot longer to find her body than it did Allison Baden Clay.

>> Um, so, but equally so in Boris and um Jared Ben Clay’s cases, police knew straight away that, you know, there was an issue.

And I speak to a family member um who was there at the time when Karen first went missing and the way that it it happened.

Um there is a lot more resistance in the situation with Boris than there is with the bait and Clay.

I mean everyone accepts I I I feel like everyone accepts that Jared did it.

Whereas in Boris’s case, certainly uh his family, um I’ve already received a a very hostile call from when I politely reached out by email.

You know, I know where um obviously Boris and Karen’s daughter is, but I reached out just said that I was working on this and if she’d like to have a chat to me anyway.

um and that and she doesn’t but can you imagine if I didn’t let her know you know and didn’t offer her the opportunity so got a very hostile um phone call um telling asking me do I have a child how could you do this you know and I basically said well he did he did do this you know this is the thing he’s pleaded guilty to manslaughter and I suspect that they think that that that what Boris is saying is that he pleaded guilty to manslaughter cuz they were going to pin it on him anyway.

>> So, but he didn’t do it and that’s kind of the the case.

So, it is a it is a really it’s a much more sensitive tricky story to report.

Now, the other thing is um Allison’s family um took care of the girls when Jared Bade and Clay went to went to uh prison.

So they’ve grown up with Allison’s family.

Um whereas the situation with Sarah is not like that.

>> Um she’s very much being remained close.

She was a lot older.

She she was very close to her dad.

Uh in fact um by all accounts she was closer to her dad than she was to her mom.

Um and I cannot imagine the pain and the suffering she’s I mean she basically well virtually lost both parents.

So it’s horrific what she’s been through.

So it is you’ve just really got to tread carefully um with a case like this one because um >> and so as subsequently >> um speaking to family me her family members they are treading very carefully as well.

So I have I have spoken to one on the record uh many others off the record.

Um I spoke to the police officer Tim Day who was um who organized the whole I guess court case or helped you know sort of came in to um organize that and they very much um know that the Bay and Clay case was a key I guess um resource for the defense team um because Ben Clay successfully appealed on the basis it was manslaughter.

And then it I mean like the fact that that happened and then the high court overturned it.

So which you know is why um Boris RVsky would have done the same.

Um so so anyway long story short um there were a lot of things against um the same sort of conviction that you got for Jared Bade and Clay and the main one being how long it took to find Karen’s body.

Um so yeah it’s it’s a uh it’s a tricky one.

Um but yeah we we have got a lot of insight and um there will be without giving too much away there will be a lot sort of coming out of that.

I think the biggest difference between these two cases that I can see is that we know a lot about Jared Baden, Clay and Allison’s relationship and the gaslighting and the emotional abuse and the all of those elements that we talk about from that timeline.

They were there with Jared, but we don’t have well we haven’t seen the evidence of that if there was any with the RVKIs.

All we’ve got is his kind of postoffense behavior which was very bizarre.

He, you know, he’s been convicted of manslaughter and after she went missing, he was the grieving husband.

He was at her funeral acting, you know, the the devastated widowerower.

So, the courts kind of reflect that like, you know, you’re not showing remorse.

You lied.

How why did you focus on that case given that you are looking at the psychology and the behind the scenes kind of stuff when with Rustki we really don’t have that apart from the post-defense stuff.

>> Yeah.

But when you talk to family members and you look at the reports um that we have got and behind the scenes with the police.

So when you see all of that and you can then put it to the experts um to analyze.

Yes.

um he does he does fit that criteria.

I mean he’s um because one of the things that I asked um Dr.

Russ Scott for example um when he was the author of the narcissistic killing uh sorry um yeah narcissistic rage and the killing of Allison Ben Clay I asked him how can you assess him if you haven’t met him >> and he said you have to base it on their behaviors because the thing with people with narcissistic personality disorder is they don’t they won’t present as their true and honest selves anyway.

you can only ever jud make analysis on their behaviors and what they did at the time.

So having all this extra insight that we will reveal from the family members um as well as the police will give that insight as well and allow for the people that we have um working with us the experts to provide their diagnosis.

Can you give us a little bit of an idea of this behind the scenes stuff with Rusevki in terms of because that would be I couldn’t find evidence of what the relationship was like in terms of the coercive control and stuff like that.

Can you give us some insight into what you’ve learned? one family member who was there at the time um can has given a lot of insight into how he was and his paranoia um with the police like he you know he he basically ended up ostracizing anyone that he couldn’t trust um because he thought you know I mean the bugging and and that they were reporting to the police.

So um yeah, when you when you speak to those family members, they do provide a lot more insight.

>> Given the context you’ve got, the descriptions we heard at the time with the RVKI murder was that it was a heat of the moment killing.

>> Mhm.

>> What is your opinion on that as a as a description? Well, I think that’s the one that’s being rebuked by the homicide timeline um creator Jane Monton Smith.

um also um criminal uh forensic criminologists um Cla Ferguson and um Laura Richards who does her own show um which goes through that saying um you know quoting Monton Smith here that um we’ve all know always kind of known that the crime of passion narrative is a load of rubbish and it is it it really is Because when you go through and I don’t know if you’ve um had a look at the first episode yet, but towards the and Cla Ferguson talks about that last moment in the homicide timeline where the walls are closing in, you know, the trigger um being that um this is the only outcome that they can proceed with.

they you know so again I won’t try to explain it because um I I I can’t do it as well as they do but it is very much looking when you look at the situation of you know the financial stress and things like that they are very much a common theme um and I don’t know about you but I think 90% of the cases of intimate partner homicides I’ve covered over the years have been when the woman is trying to leave.

>> Yeah.

It’s the most dangerous time.

>> Yeah.

And I still can’t believe in some cases the hidden homicides that it’s still not treated as such.

So I still feel like even though it’s really obvious the theories there, this is, you know, even as a lay person who’s not analyzing all this sort of stuff, why in these situations is it still deemed as being um spontaneous? you know that the you know that that this is um this leaving part is just an act of where you snap or you know you lose control I don’t I mean you think of losing control I mean has it >> you kill someone >> yeah yeah that’s right do you think that how is it acceptable that losing control and killing someone going together is acceptable It’s funny you say that those terms have kind of been debunked by experts in this area because I still see them on headlines recently.

>> Yeah.

But that’s the problem.

It’s not being debunked in the legal process >> and even in the investigative process in a lot of cases.

So you would have um individual cases where um where you see gosh I have to mention it Amy Winsley there is no obvious more obvious case I have done where I mean you you um for example in the US they brought in Joanna’s law right where they have I think it’s 10 things and they list all these things that mean it’s not accidental or a suicide which a lot of them are staged to look like.

Yeah.

>> And hers ticks every single box.

They only need one of those for Joanna’s law to be, you know, um, invoked.

Like they like with Joanna’s law, if one of these boxes are ticked, they have to treat it as a homicide.

>> But so it seems strange that they would need to make it legislation, but they do.

They do need to make it legislation.

And because it just doesn’t happen.

There are different people.

You would have seen the Gabby Patito >> footage, no doubt.

Oh my gosh.

And so >> compelling.

>> Yes.

I mean, so on she is seen as the perpetrator in that situation.

Like that to me just blew me away as I’m watching that and still it’s being misdiagnosed.

We have a case that we’re dealing with um Charles Evans.

>> Yeah.

>> Where the same thing happened and and in Victoria um and you know and and he’s ch like probably The most outrageous of all of them is his one being downgraded from murder to dangerous driving causing death and failure to render assistance.

>> Like that’s that’s how little value Alicia Little’s life has in the eyes of the law.

>> It’s it’s incredible.

He was out with in three years.

Insane.

You have described Jared as being possibly the most obvious expert abuser when we look at him in hindsight.

>> Why do you say that? >> Because like you mentioned earlier everything in court like there was it was like all there and when you listen to the whole and read the whole documents we got a lot of the court audio so we got to hear the impact as well.

It is.

It’s like the eight stages of the homicide timeline playing out in real life.

You feel like it’s a Shakespearean tragedy as you it’s just horrific.

So when we you know if you go fast forward to four I suppose um stage four and how he’s managed to undermine her confidence so much whittleled it away so that she like Gabby Patito would blame herself.

So even his infidelity right >> she blamed herself for that she at the at the stage you know because of this depression that she had from uh adverse effect from antimmalarial um medication on their when they were first went overseas and that was kind of kept coming back as well.

And that’s not to say that she didn’t have some mental health anxiety.

You would if you were married to him, you [laughter] know, like it’s just it’s but it’s not clinical depression.

She wouldn’t have been able to get up and go for a walk if she was clinically depressed.

>> Yeah.

>> Um so so it it as I said um and then the financial stress and then the I mean he also looked up you know the life insurance you know policy.

I think the thing with someone like Jared Bade and Clay and and Boris RVsky is while you think they’re not a good husband, the thought of them being a killer seems like an extra step, right? It seems like it’s a little bit more of a gap that you can’t it doesn’t make sense.

But when you actually look at it and their personality personalities and the the abuse that they had to put up with, I think in Karen’s situation was a little bit different because there’s the the ones that actually rely on the woman, not the not want to be the bread winner to control the finances and things like that.

So there was there was a little bit of a a different dynamic there.

Um they’re all kind of different.

And the thing about expert abusers is they they cater to the situation.

Like any anyone that um knows what they’re doing and and is practiced at it, they they just look at okay so this is this situation so I have to do this, you know.

So whatever the tactic is, whatever the the thing is that keeps them in check that that allows them to them to control that’s that’s what they use.

Others will use children, >> you know, um because they know that the mom will often, you know, that’s her her real, I guess, way to get to her.

So, um cuz the child is used as an emotional tool.

Do you think with a lot of the cases that you’ve analyzed it is that kind of like perfect family from the outside and then when you kind of peel back the covers is that how these men get away with it for so long? >> I think so.

But also it’s a normality of the situation too.

I mean you got to remember in Australia they only I mean in in the in the 60s I believe it was only then that women could start to own a house could actually be on the deeds of a house.

Um, and then the 70s they brought in no fault divorce.

And then 80s and 90s were kind of said, “Oh, everything’s good now.

You don’t need to worry.

You’re all equal.

” And we’re all duh, you know, that’s kind of but it is it does kind of create a culture where women have lower status, you know, and and which is the whole argument that Jay Monton Smith says is that women have such low status even when they lose their lives.

And it’s just horrific.

So you’ll notice also, Gemma, cuz the other thing is that not all lives are equal.

So in the cases of Allison and Karen, they’re middle class women.

They’re more relatable.

So they get more publicity and look, they all like they should.

It was a horrible they they were killed by a man.

So absolutely they should, but not all women get that >> patterns of behavior.

You’re kind of trying to work out why these men who do murder, what’s going on in their brains? What like how is it unfolding? How are their relationships falling apart in this way? You have given them the label narcissistic killers.

>> Can you tell me about that? >> Or killer narcissist.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

It’s killer narcissists or expert abusers andor expert abusers.

Um, look, certainly with, you know, narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder, it did come up in courts for Tyrone Thompson as well as um there was an independent study done on Jared Bait and Clay called um narcissistic rage and the killing of Allison Baden Clay.

So, there are precedents and there are factors that we go into and we talk to the experts to explain that.

And um and I guess it’s to me and um this is not being a forensic psychiatrist or psychologist like I’ve spoken to or even a criminologist but to me it is obviously the um the lack of empathy and the lack of remorse and and the objectification of the people involved and it just being this whole idea of not having control.

This loss of control that is the trigger.

It’s not like they talk about people being violent and in Thompson’s case it’s like he’s this crazed violent, you know, like he’s a a ticking time bomb.

Um but he’s exploding all the time, just not necessarily to that length of of killing someone until he does.

Um, so but in a lot of these cases there isn’t any violence.

The according to the domestic violence death review team in New South Wales, there was a quarter I think in in their 2023 2023 report, a quarter um did not have a record of violence.

That’s not to say there wasn’t any, but a a quarter.

So, and when you speak to the experts and they talk about um what coercive control is and then how many end up going to jail, it’s they basically have to prove guilty.

I mean, sorry, plead guilty for that to happen.

It’s really really hard because violence is such a key indicator in their mind to to get a conviction on that basis.

So you can go through the courts and and really um with that one in New South Wales was successfully prosecuted, it was because they pleaded guilty.

So what I guess the good news is is that people understand now that it’s outlawed.

Um but they don’t the system doesn’t actually provide enough understanding so that it can be used properly.

>> Yeah.

Um >> the system’s more set up for those very violent people who are continuously >> physically doing things.

>> Yeah.

So you could see potentially people like Tyrone Thompson might be handled better now, but even then in his in this case, yeah, I it just it is a it’s a tough gig, I think, to get these over the line.

And I think um when I speak to other people and and people that are going through it, they seem to feel like this ser this issue of women getting killed is not being taken seriously enough.

And they compare it to something like the one punch can kill um campaign I did up in here in Brisbane with alcohol filled violence and cab lines and things like that.

And it was horrific.

And I’m so glad particularly as a mom of a, you know, soon to be teenage boy that this issue has been dealt with properly.

But I also think that equally they there is a big I guess elephant in the room that women getting killed in domestic violence, family violence situations isn’t being treated properly.

And there’s a big discrepancy there.

Do you know they don’t even calculate the number of femicides nationally at all? Like federally like they there’s no government body or anyone like that.

They don’t even count it.

>> For those listeners who don’t know that story, who is Tyrone Thompson and what did he do? Who was his victim? >> Okay, so Tyrone Thompson and McKenzie Anderson, they went out when they were in Sydney.

It was during co lockdown generally.

So the mother Tabitha Akrit who is an absolute powerhouse in this area like she is a force of nature.

She has really um come through with this but um she had restricted contact because of co um with McKenzie but McKenzie got involved with Tyrone and like she was very young.

She was 21 um when she died but she um she was in this bad relationship.

She had a child, a 23-month-old, um, who witnessed her being murdered um, in her home after she’d run away from him after eight breaches of [ __ ] She fled to Newcastle to be closer to her mom.

He found her when he one of his many releases um after breaching his AVO and um basically she armed herself with a knife um when he came in and he was threatening and she knew what he and she had a child there which you know her 23-month-old and he then went and um ended up stabbing her 78 plus times.

Um, and he it was so bad that he used two knives cuz one snapped.

And little boy, 23-month-old, was there the whole time.

When the police arrived, they couldn’t see him but for the blood.

Um and McKenzie was, you know, it was obviously um there was no, it was just this, she’d done everything, absolutely everything to escape that situation.

So Tabitha Akrit, who was in Canes at the time, she got the phone call, she’s got a a son of her own who was 12, I believe, at the time.

And um she had to get back um didn’t want to tell her son straight away cuz she didn’t want him to be on the flight and have to worry about it.

She had to pull herself together, get back, go get her grandson.

Um, and he was basically they they tried to they put him in the bath and tried to clean him up and he just crawl basically crawled over to her and attached himself to her like a koala.

M >> um so she had to then become a mom to him and couldn’t grieve um properly because she had to be strong for him and he didn’t sleep for weeks properly and he would just whimper and so she’s now having to go through that whole process of rehabilitating him.

Um again she tells it much better than I do.

Um, Tyrone Thompson, he uh his court case, he’s been in and out of courts most of his young life.

Like he, you know, um, and gosh, let’s face it.

Um, we we all kind of chose badly when we were younger, [laughter] you know, I’m not and she did try to break it off several times.

Like it was so, you know, the fact that, you know, people say, “Oh, why did why did you go out with someone like that?” Uh, you know, I mean, these people can be so charismatic.

they can be.

So, you know, he was I guess if you didn’t know any better, you might think him good-looking.

Anyway, um and he really tried to forge a relationship with her son.

Um Tabitha Akrit said how that kind of worried her for a bit, but she realized that that was a way of controlling McKenzie um by using her child.

Um so he um yeah he he’s obviously a obviously violent sort of person.

He was um that was his tactic is violence.

Um other ones like RVski and um and bait and clay use other methods um more subtle methods >> but um violence was definitely his number one thing.

I mean again they he was they talked about him having aspects of narcissistic personality disorder but also antisocial personality you know like there was there was many there are many issues with Tyrone Thompson >> but he will um be out by the before he’s 40 under the uh the under the current uh sentencing.

So it uh the again Tabitha goes into the issues like he um he would not he’s not a model prisoner.

In fact, he’s the opposite.

Um they put him in isolation cells and I think he’s destroyed cameras and nurses won’t go near him and all this sort of stuff.

And so they don’t want him in there because he’s too much trouble.

So good behavior and bad behavior.

>> I know, right? So, it’s just like this whole situation where there’s always excuses for the perpetrator and because he’s young, there’s seen to be a chance of rehabilitation.

But the problem is, as the experts say, personality disorders don’t afford, they don’t have that um good rehabilitation prospect.

Yeah.

you know, associated with them because they are who they are and a lot of people don’t, particularly narcissists, don’t recognize that in themselves.

So, yeah.

So, that’s uh Tyrone Thompson, but um yeah, so that was in Newcastle.

So, it wasn’t that long ago.

Um and then of course they had he was sentenced and then um Tabitha Akrid appealed.

There has also been a new law introduced now in New South Wales subsequently thanks to the advocacy of Tabitha Akrit um who was very strong in um I mean she’s got a she’s actually really wellversed in this like she she knows what she’s talking about and so it’s now 25 years non-parole um but that doesn’t apply to Tyrone Thompson because it you can’t make it retrospective so and she failed in her appeal And we do we go in a bit to that to the Justice Weinstein sentence um and his ex explanation of why it was considered uh by many would would uh think that it was too light.

Um and then of course the appeal and then um the Justice Bell um explains that as well.

So yeah, I mean it’s certainly a really good one to show the flaws in the legal system.

>> Obviously you’re focusing on behavior and psychology, but we’ve, you know, we’ve talked about the restrictions of the court systems.

So, h like how do we change this? What how do you think we change this? [laughter] Because it’s obviously the court systems that need to change as well as the cultural behavioral stuff.

>> Absolutely, it does.

So, awareness is one thing.

Um, political will is another.

Um so getting um for example, Queensland seems much more conducive to the idea of bringing in new legislation, reforming it.

They’ve got they’ve got a two women who uh Deb Freckington who’s the attorney general and um Amanda Cam who we speak to is the domestic violence prevention minister.

So the fact that they have people in those roles and we’ve brought in coercive control, same with New South Wales, same with South Australia.

So there seems to be more of a political will in that area, which is great.

So it’s easier to focus on the ones that seem happy to do it.

But then when you’ve got the um in Victoria, they’ve got arguably the best coronial system in the world or one of them.

Um so they have a really good lot of people to speak to in that area as well.

So anyway, it is it is a case of I think from my perspective is getting it out there and looking at all the problems and having people reflect on it and hopefully getting some change, some meaningful change in it may be just incremental, but it may be just you know I mean I know in um Queensland they’re considering CLA’s law which has been in place um in the UK I think for 15 years.

So, um, you know, I spoke to Jay Monton Smith about that about that.

Um, how that could work here.

Um, and yeah, so that’s that’s the thing I I guess I’m hoping to do because it’s we’re only one cog in a very big machine, but media and getting the spotlight on it and shining it really brightly um is is key to getting change.

So um I’m I’m talking to as many people as I can and there is actually you know quite a lot of frustration um but by from academics and legal professionals in this area to try to get change.

So um I think I think um and then of course you know as I’m told the um the ministers then have to convince their cabinet colleagues.

So again the media spotlight helps with that.

Has anything as someone who has done this for 30 years, has Has has anything surprised you >> in in unpacking all of this stuff? >> Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely it has.

It is very much it’s like what they say that you you know that this is wrong.

But I think I think what surprises me is that it has been as I said feel like that I’ve been part of the majority of of the world who’s been gaslit in this area.

um in thinking that um yeah in thinking that this was that I believed I guess the crime of passion narrative as much as anyone else did I suppose and so yeah it’s all been quite shocking but I guess the the biggest shocks and you’d feel it too are the individual cases like I think that Alicia little one that that downgrade of that that killing was just abhorrent.

Um, I think mid-range violence describing Tyrone Thompson’s murder of of Mackenzie Anderson.

That that was shocking, you know, but again, I’m I’m made I kind of feel a little bit silly saying that when you’re kind of explained the legal parameters and and all the different things and it’s not it’s not the explainer’s fault.

it’s just that’s the way it is and that’s why you need to change it.

So all these sorts of things I think um just how much needs to be done and how much needs to change is quite surprising and I think um I I feel the cultural change.

Yes, it’s a long time coming.