Chris Watts Speaks: The Complete Prison Interview Breakdown

In August of 2018, the world watched in horror as the story of Shannan Watts and her two young daughters, Bella and Celeste, unfolded into a nightmare.

What you’re about to hear is Chris Watts’s very first interview from behind bars, an exclusive insight into the mind of a man who committed an unthinkable crime.

There are no rehearsed answers, just a voice revealing the cold, quiet truth.

This is not easy to hear.

But it’s important.

It’s a moment frozen in time, a glimpse into the psychology of a killer hiding behind a mask of normaly.

So listen closely.

Every pause, every word tells its own story.

This is the Chris Watts Prison Interview.

>> You are listening to Criminal Cases Journal.

Real stories from the darkest corners of criminal history.

Some names have been changed, and some tapes were never meant to be heard.

>> Hey, Chris.

>> Chris, >> do you remember us? Uh, yes.

Yes.

Okay, I see.

I just moment there.

>> Different.

>> They uh well get haircut every two months.

Just buzz pretty much everything off and all that.

So, >> trying to think, did you have a last time? >> They have like a little single blade razor.

So, I just kind of feel like go fast.

It’s double.

You just kind of >> just do the best you can.

Huh.

>> You just got to go with that.

>> Yeah.

How are you doing? >> I’m okay.

How about you guys? >> Good.

Good.

>> I didn’t I did not expect to see this, that’s for sure.

>> Surprised? >> Yes.

>> Well, let me put some fears aside.

Um, we’re not here for what you might think we might be here for.

>> Well, they they didn’t know what this a computer room.

I was like, I didn’t know we had a computer >> without computers.

>> Exactly.

>> So, you remember um I talked to you, Tammy talked to you, Dave talked to you.

We’re all from Colorado.

Um and so the last time we talked to you was a different situation, right? Um our investigation was open and your case was open.

Um that’s completely different now.

So your case is completely closed.

Nothing about what we’re going to talk about today is has anything to do with an open investigation.

So we’re not here to give more charges on you or get any statements from you that are going to jam you up anymore.

Right? That’s all done.

So all of our cases are closed and the court case is closed.

So there’s nothing that we’re going to talk about today that’s going to get you in any type of metal.

Um and so that’s I wanted to make sure you knew that’s not why we’re here.

>> Okay.

>> Okay.

Um why we are here.

So um so the three of us work from three different agencies, right? Quite a bit different.

Um CBI, FBI, and Frederick Different goals.

And um the things that happened with you kind of all brought us together.

And as the months have passed on since everything happened, we just keep in touch with each other and we keep talking to each other and we’ve all separately kind of said, um, did Chris seem unique to you? And me and Tammy have talked about this, Dave and I have talked about this.

Did Chris’s situation seem different to you? And we keep having that conversation, we can’t quite put our finger on it, right? Um, we think that your life leading up to all the things that happened uh were very interesting to us.

And for me personally, I don’t know if you remember, but one of the last things you told me was, “Hey, Graham, I’m sorry that I started lying to you.

” Um, and that stuck with me for the last couple months.

It’s been great in my head, right? Um, I’ve never ever worked a case like this where someone told me that never.

Um, you know, and so as I walked away, I thought Chris is different.

which is a little bit unique in that regard.

Um, so in talking with Tammy and talking with Dave, um, I said, you know, what did you feel like when it all went down? When we were there, we were talking to you guys and we all kind of in our own different way and in our own different word and said it all happened a bit too quick for us, right? Um, so when we saw you last, we were talking and talking and talking um about your family, about your parents, about everyone.

And then the next thing you know, for me and Tammy and for Dave, all of a sudden some patrol officers came in and arrested you.

Um, and that was far quicker than we had hoped it would happen.

Um, and you understand why that happened, and we understand why that happened, but it left us with a thousand questions that we didn’t get to ask.

Um, and then even more importantly, I think it probably left you with a thousand things that you didn’t get to talk about with us.

I don’t know if you feel that way or not, but um, and so that’s why we’re here today.

Um, we wanted to kind of talk to you a little bit more about everything, you know.

Um, I think there’s a lot of things that you didn’t even get to talk about.

Um, and so, you know, that’s why we’re here.

Um, and it sticks with me that to this day there’s not one person that’s told me I saw it coming.

I knew Chris was like that.

I knew it.

Not one person.

So, it’s just it’s it’s interesting to me, right? No, not one.

So, we want to talk a little bit about that.

some of the people that we work with, uh, your family, Shannan’s family, um, have said, you know, if you get to talk to Chris, would you tell him something for me? So, we have that to talk about today, and it’s good.

I think you’ll like it.

I think it’ll give you some closure.

Um, and so, really, that’s why we’re here.

Are you available to talk to us? >> Um, definitely.

>> Okay.

All right.

Um, so off the bat, if you have any questions, just tell us.

>> Okay.

If there’s something that you don’t want to talk about, that’s okay.

Um, we might press you a little bit.

Okay? We might say, “Well, do you mind if we just maybe then ask one question? Um, something makes you uncomfortable, just tell us.

Um, if we need to take any bathroom breaks, we can take bathroom breaks.

” Uh, you know, anything like that.

And we’ll take bathroom breaks and water breaks ourselves, too.

Um, so then is there anything about your schedule today that makes it that you can’t talk to us? >> No.

that this there was like a pass for this and the AM and the PM.

>> Yeah, they reserve the room the whole day just in case.

>> That is what they do.

Okay.

I didn’t know if that was like two separate things or something.

>> I think you have to go back for lunch to get um counted for or something.

Accounted for >> Yeah, I think >> 11:30 was like 11, but the count.

>> So, in general, how is it? >> It’s a lot different.

>> Is it bad? That’s better I think because I mean it’s here I’m actually around other people.

I mean in Colorado it was just like I was segregated and it was like pounding all the walls on the ice cream and just me >> from other people.

>> They were just telling me like how I should kill myself and like what they’re going to do to me and just like all that kind of stuff.

It was today.

This this is a lot different cuz I mean people here they don’t seem to it’s not like they don’t care but it’s just kind of like they they don’t take they don’t like judge you as soon as you walk in Colorado.

It was like they they knew why I was there and they just that was it.

They’re just like they just they had one second with me.

It would have been >> really must be out of out of time jail.

I don’t know how what it was like in you know doc there but you know they had to lock down the jail for me to walk down the hallway.

>> Wow.

>> It will.

>> Mhm.

>> So they had to make sure you were completely separated from anyone else.

>> Jeez.

>> Like I couldn’t I didn’t see anybody else there.

Like I was I was I was next to somebody but like I never saw them.

>> You just hear them? >> I didn’t know who you were.

Um I don’t know.

I just um they they make phone calls in there, too.

Okay.

>> And they got the newspaper in there before I >> got in that got in there.

So, >> yeah.

>> How is uh have you been able to talk with family? >> Oh, yeah.

Definitely.

We get uh from 6:00 p.

m.

to 7:30.

That’s our on my unit’s not out.

So, we get to use the phone at that point.

>> Really? >> And do they charge you for it or >> Oh, it’s just like it’s like secures or something.

>> Okay.

>> And how do you make money to pay for that? Um they put uh money on the phone.

>> Oh.

>> So if I call like if I was like to dial somebody’s number, they have to have like a phone account set up.

>> Oh.

>> That’s restricted.

>> And then so the who you call pays for it? >> Yes.

>> Oh, okay.

You’ve been able to talk to like family members and parents and all.

>> Yeah.

My mom and dad, my sister.

>> Okay.

>> Good.

Is that a good thing? >> That’s a good thing.

Good.

>> Good.

>> Yeah.

They they don’t hear from me.

They’re like, “Oh, what’s wrong? What’s going on?” >> Good.

And how was it with them? >> So far so good.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

It was uh it was hard to hear your parents and send the same.

>> Yeah.

>> I didn’t know if they were gonna what they were gonna say.

>> So, yeah.

And so, yeah, I really appreciated what they said.

I don’t know about you.

>> I definitely it was uh I didn’t expect them to be there that I knew they were there on the 6th, the 6th, but I didn’t expect to fly back and I wanted to fly back to that.

So, >> yeah, that meant a lot with your mom said.

>> Mhm.

Definitely.

Okay, >> good.

Um, well, so we have a thousand questions.

I’m sure you do, too.

Do you care if we start or do you have any questions for us? >> Go ahead.

>> All right.

So, one of the things that we’re battling with is um, and I I should I won’t make any assumptions today.

So, are you aware that this was a national story? >> After after a little while, it was I didn’t talk to my parents while I was in Colorado.

>> Okay.

cuz I mean my attorney team told me I had no phone calls, no letters, no no nothing.

Okay.

>> So like I made I made one phone call when I was in the segregation area there but my dad didn’t thought it was like somebody like a news >> somebody trying to call.

Yeah.

So he didn’t answer but other than that I didn’t talk to anybody but from what the some of the deputies are saying that you know or my attorney team coming in and said you know this is like they’ve got people from Australia, England and all kinds of people trying to figure out what’s going on.

So >> did they send you any of the letters like fan mail or anything? Well, um I got letters but I couldn’t keep them like with me.

So like I could read them like on my hour out but it’s like you know I got a bunch of just letters that had no return address and stuff that was just you know stuff that was just you know not very good letters.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

They came from a weird perspective, didn’t they? From what we had heard.

>> Definitely.

There was there was one person I guess from Broomfield that was like writing like four times a week trying to come visit me and then there was just a lot of people like writing that was like flicking through markers saying like you’re monster all kinds of stuff.

>> All right.

Well, I don’t we’re going to talk about some hard issues today, but I don’t intend to take you to a dark place today.

Okay.

>> Um I hope that when we’re done you’ll feel better.

I hope it’ll be therapeutic.

Um, we’re going to talk about obviously what happened with your family and so that’s going to be hard to talk about.

I appreciate anything you can tell me about it.

Um, if you need to take a time out, if you need to get a tissue, that’s fine, right? Um, I think it’ll be very good for you.

It’ll be good for us.

Um and so one of the reasons I asked about that national attention is um we were aware that you were getting a lot of letters um a lot of interest and then us personally as law enforcement we got so many people who claimed to have known you claimed to have been with you dated you slept with you and 99 out of 100 they were just crazy people right and so maybe that’s a good place to start.

Um, had you heard about any of that? >> Uh, John, well, she told me about uh one some dude from Wyoming.

>> Trent.

>> Yeah, that guy that that that blew my mind.

I was like, who know this guy? >> And who told you about that? >> Uh, attorney John.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, do you mind if we talk about him? >> Graham and I interviewed him.

>> You had to.

A >> waste of our lives.

>> Yes.

So Trent, in summary, Trent came in and said, um, met you online on a dating app.

Um, had a few, you know, uh, casual but quick sexual encounters with you.

Um, and and let me be very clear, not only are we not here to DM you up today, we’re also not here to judge you.

Um, and if there is anything like that, you can imagine we’ve heard way worse, way different, way, you know.

So, um, if it’s true, I hope that you can just casually say, “Yeah, I mean, this happened.

and it wasn’t as bad as he said, but maybe this happened.

So, his story was um met online, met you, and it was a time when you were uh experimenting with maybe with men.

And so, he said he met a couple times, met his friends, went to an apartment, had a couple of meetings in a parking lot, and that was basically it.

Any of that sounds familiar? Okay.

>> I never met the guy.

>> Okay.

All right.

>> Yeah.

He talked about being in a your truck with your girls, like the whole nine yards.

So, >> I never even been to Wyoming, not at all.

Driven up there to see someone.

>> Yeah.

Um, and so this is maybe a weird question for you.

Uh, do you have any uh gay experience? >> No.

>> Okay.

Any interest? >> No.

>> Okay.

Never at a time experimented and wondered.

>> No.

>> Okay.

Is it possible that he found you instead of you finding him? Someone John told me to find me on like a WhatsApp.

I don’t even have that app.

Okay.

I mean, he had my phone, so you probably saw the app I had, but I’ve never even heard of the app, but Okay.

>> Apparently, like he told me like met him do like a rehab center or something.

>> Is that what he said? >> No, that was another guy.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

>> Yeah.

It was It was totally I No.

>> So, did you see a picture of him on the news or anything? Um John showed me a picture of like you know this guy and he was I was kind of >> you know making fun like you know sure I’m like no.

>> So you saw it and you were like no way big lips.

Did you see the his giant lips? >> I was just like I have no clue this guy.

>> And he’s somewhat memorable.

I mean if you met him or talked to him or got to know him you might remember.

>> Um he’s he’s he was kind of meek.

>> Yeah.

>> But also a little bit um flamboyant.

>> Mhm.

>> Yeah.

He did fake lip or not fake lips but injections.

>> He was very into skin care and makeup.

>> Um and he mentioned that one of the times just as a gift you got him some skin care products.

>> Mhm.

>> Any of that sound familiar? >> No.

Okay.

You can imagine all the stuff we’re dealing with.

Okay.

So that’s one.

>> Mhm.

>> Trent BS.

There was another gal that you were dealing with.

>> Amanda McMahon.

Have you ever heard that name? >> No.

>> John showed me a picture of her.

>> Okay.

>> Oh, you did see a picture of her, too? >> Yeah.

Uh he had like >> Does that look familiar? >> That’s the same picture he showed me on myself one time.

I was looking.

I was like, “Who’s that?” He’s like, “Oh, you don’t know her either?” >> Yeah.

>> Like, “No.

” >> Yeah.

>> He said it was like a Chick-fil-A parking lot or something, >> right? >> That’s what she’s claiming.

Okay.

>> Only went to one Chick-fil-A in Colorado.

That was the one in Brookfield, Highway 7.

>> Okay.

>> Oh, that’s it.

Okay.

Um, do you feel comfortable enough today to tell us if there were other people? >> Yeah, it was just a cold.

Okay.

>> That was it.

>> Um, as these people have come out, for the most part, we’ve not given their stories much credit.

They’re just crazy people who want attention.

Um, and so, but when that does happen, it does make us think, um, you know, there may have been others.

And so, Nicole was the only one.

That was only one.

>> Was there ever like a one night stand with someone else just out of the blue and one and done? >> No.

>> Okay.

All right.

Um, do you want to talk a little bit more about >> so walk me through it? Cuz that was one of the things we never really got to ask you about, >> right? We didn’t talk.

>> Kind of skipped on and, you know, talked about where the girls were, but so what happened there.

So, it was probably around probably June 1st or something.

That’s when I first met her.

And, um, it was just like a work conversation.

she messed with the gas meters that you know we were out in the field and then I was messing up and then I took it to her like hey I know how what’s going on with this like how do I fix it and you know after that you know we just ran into each other a few times in the office and I think it was probably the fourth time meeting um she had asked me cuz like when I we were talking back and forth I would say you know like we moved here from Colorado from North Carolina stuff like that and then she’s like what’s all this weeks like I become like God took out my phone and showed her a picture like my girl was on the phone like oh okay like yeah like I don’t wear I didn’t wear ring at work cuz like I said also get refitted like I lost all that weight so but um >> you lost so much weight that your fingers lost weight >> it was literally like I was out in the snow one time I went like that and my ring went off on the rocks so I was just like I was panicking trying to find I was like where is anyone but um so after that she left me alone for a couple days and she text me outside the field.

And then after that, we just kept texting back and forth and it was just, you know, just like, you know, like she used to work in a little rig out in North Dakota, I think.

And um we just kind of sharing stories back and forth about what we did and everything.

And then one day it just kind of went to a different different level.

And then I never thought I would ever go to that level, but she was talking about meeting up after we got back from San Diego.

Yeah, we were in San Diego from the 22nd to the 26th of June and uh we met up after after we got after we got back.

And um >> how did you guys meet up? >> Uh at a park in uh Thornton at Thorton somewhere.

Um and after that we just kept seeing each other pretty much whole month of July.

>> So let me ask you this.

Um, you tell me if I’m wrong, you strike me as somewhat of a shy person.

So, when you guys were meeting, did it was just kind of very initiatory, like flirting at first.

>> Okay.

From both sides.

>> Yeah.

It was just kind of like feeling each other out.

It’s kind of I mean, >> yeah.

Um, and so texts, any calls? >> More near the end of June.

>> Okay.

And what makes you remember that it’s a sure that it happened? >> We called each other before I left to go to San Diego.

>> Oh, okay.

Um, at first, did you think something might happen? >> I just thought it was just flirting.

I didn’t think it was actually like something that would actually happen.

>> Yeah.

Well, it’s only natural, right? I mean, everyone kind of flirts at work, right? Um because relationship between men and women is different.

So, if you’re working with a girl at work, it’s just kind of natural to flirt.

I wish I was out on the field more than the office.

Those demo got see it in your eyes.

That’s uh that’s kind of where the path started, isn’t it? >> Yeah.

I mean, if I was like cuz when I was a field when I went from like a rover to a field coordinator, like I would spend more time in the morning time in the office trying to get everything like situated where we’re going to go, everything like that.

If I was a rover, I’d be more out in the field instead of like coming to the office like for more than an hour, >> right? And just gave me more time to run into her pretty much.

>> Yeah.

>> What did she know about you? Did she know you were married at first? >> She did once I showed her the pictures.

>> Yeah.

My phone.

Yeah.

Like, you know, the home screen picture.

>> So, was your wife in that picture or was it just your girls? >> It was just my girls right there, but my wife was the like the lock screen.

>> Oh.

So, she knew I was married, my kids.

Okay.

>> Are you aware that she said she didn’t know you were married? >> What’ you think about that? >> It was like just trying to save face, trying to, you know, >> I just trying to something my sister said.

It was like uh just trying to keep things together.

just trying she she she phrase it a different way but just kind of like um just like ground control just trying to control everything that’s going on around her cuz I’m sure she got bombarded by all kind of different sides from the media and everything.

So >> have you talked to her at all? >> No.

>> I’m hoping she hasn’t like you know written me in a different alias or something.

No, I’m not talking to her that way.

>> And are you not allowed to talk to her? >> I I would hope not.

Okay.

>> No one’s told you that though.

No, I mean I would I would expect like u I thought like in Colorado it said like on the doc list if you’re on like a victim list you can’t call anybody >> but here I’m not sure if that’s the same but I just talked to my sister parents that’s a friend of my parents.

>> Do you wish you could talk to her? >> Maybe once just to >> just get some closure >> just to say like hey you know just once.

Yeah, >> just to say like I’m sorry this all happened.

I’m sorry.

I’m not sure like what happened like afterwards like what you went through like if you had like counseling if you’re like you know different state if you had to leave everything behind but I just wanted to let you know I’m sorry if that’s not something happening or happening to somebody else either.

>> Would you be all right if we told her that? >> That’s fine.

Do you want us to not >> and if she would want you to talk to you guys? I’m not sure if someone I’m sure she’d answer your phone call more than attorney phone call that she doesn’t want to call her.

Yeah.

>> Oh, so your attorney tried to call her and she wouldn’t answer.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

Cuz I remember I remember her phone number, but uh after that they figured out I guess where she lived.

They left a call business card there and she just pretty much after like the fifth attempt they said she said stop coming around.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

I’m sure she’s getting bombarded like everyone else.

So, >> and hopefully it’s calmed down since.

But, but I’m sure like I just hope she can like like I’m there’s like normaly for her not since she’s on the outside, but I’m hoping it can get that way at some point.

Not sure if she had to leave Colorado or not, but I’m sure that would have been hard if she did.

>> Mhm.

telling a doctor was her dream job.

So that’s one thing I always like asked my attorney just like did she have to leave like did she have to do anything at work? That was one thing she always told me that was your dream job.

So oh really what does she mean? >> Oh like in the oil company in dark I was like I mean unless you’re working like BP or like Philips or something.

>> Oh I see what you’re saying.

>> And like you know big leagues.

Yeah.

Can I ask kind of a tough question? >> Um, did you love her? >> I felt like it was true.

>> Yeah, >> I think so, too.

I think it was the same from her.

Okay.

Um, tell us about the time.

I mean, it felt like it was, you know, I think like when you said like more I was more like a shy guy.

It’s kind of like I never like been pursued by anybody before.

It’s kind of like I was the one, you know, trying to pursue cuz like when me and Shenan met it was like, you know, she was always like pushing me away kind of like, you know, she was sick for a while, right? >> Oh, yeah.

She had Yeah.

She was uh she had just got diagnosed with lupus and she was on like a bunch of different medications and stuff and um it was like I guess I wasn’t her type.

>> You weren’t her.

>> I wasn’t her type cuz like she she she told me like when when she first cuz we had met she told you that.

>> Yeah.

>> I remember you telling me that.

>> Yeah.

It was like you know when we first met was at a movie theater and my cousin’s ex-wife said >> you were dressed like [ __ ] weren’t you? I didn’t I think that’s what you told me.

>> Yeah.

I didn’t know like that.

>> So, she was fancy and he was in like shorts and tennis shoes or something, right? >> And like I should have known the door, man.

You know, it was in a suit and I was just like, >> “This isn’t good.

” >> Like, >> it was a fancy theater, right? It was kind of in Charlotte.

It was called the epicenter.

And apparently, they give you like champagne and all kind of stuff.

Oh, this is a fancy date night theater.

>> Yeah, >> I think he came I think he came like he was going to a >> cinemax.

Like I was going to a >> point theater.

>> No, it was like like you like we just watched the normal normal movie but it was like you can like drink champagne and like have like you know a Jack and Coke inside the theater and just sit there and just >> whatever.

But like uh yeah, when she first saw me she was like I should probably just turn and talk to the bartender a little more.

No, I’m not like I’m not I’m not here to meet.

Yeah, like it was I was like persistent trying to pursue something.

I liked her and uh like even on our first date like I couldn’t even eat anything really.

I was just like you know nervous about Yeah.

>> Really? >> Yeah.

I was she was just like you know chowed out and she was like a bird.

I’m like and she told my parents like you know months later she was like this guy just never ate like this guy it’s like a trash disposal this trash disposal.

I was like, “No, I was not around me.

” I’m talking about I’m just nervous.

I was just like I was always like shaking and everything.

But um yeah, it was I was always pursuing her and then just like um finally I just I threw on to her like you know I would always like like with her medications and stuff.

I would always like she had like eight bottles of medication so I would always get like her day and nights and kind of like put them all in that little you know flip open pill box.

Yeah.

All that kind of stuff.

And and I would always you know be around her.

I even went to her colon hospital.

She said after that she knew that was like a kind of a keeper.

>> It’s like you know who goes to a colonoscopy after 3 months with somebody.

>> That’s a little soon.

>> Well, she asked if she needed a ride.

I’m like, “Yeah.

” She’s like, “You want to go to colonoscopy with him?” I’m like, “Sure, why not?” >> Like, I even sat with her while she drank that nasty stuff all day.

Yeah.

>> Or she’s in the bathroom all day.

>> That’s a good test.

>> That clear stuff that’s not real that doesn’t really taste clear.

>> Yeah.

But uh it was I mean it felt like a great it was a great relationship.

Everything was everything was great.

>> Now you’re talking about with Ker.

>> No talking and um like the first first year you know like my parents never I don’t know my mom was always kind of hesitant.

>> Why I was baby I guess I never you know I never had a girlfriend in high school.

So it’s kind of like she never like really saw me like >> Oh, interesting.

So she’s kind of watching her baby walk out a little bit.

>> Yeah, because I when I turned 18, I graduated.

I never moved back.

>> Okay.

>> At home.

So sister moved back and forth all the time.

So >> how old were you when you met Shenan? >> I was 25.

This 2010.

So >> Okay.

>> So no serious girlfriends before that? >> Nothing more than like 6 months or so.

Yeah, there was there was there was some girls here and there, but just nothing more than like, you know, the last girlfriend I had before and she was just actually got divorced and I should have never been that.

But it was more of like a I was kind of like helping her get through her divorce.

It seemed like >> she went off somewhere else.

I’m like, “Oh, no.

You’re the rebound guy.

” >> The rebound guy >> pretty much, but how it goes.

Would you say that in your relationships with women, um, it seems to me, and you tell me if I’m wrong, it seems to me like you’re attracted maybe a more dominant personality.

>> It seemed like it because I’m more of the just reserved.

I mean, I just kind of like go with the flow type and like usually made all the decisions it seemed like.

So, >> I get that.

I’m saying, yeah, I don’t know what it is.

Yeah, I don’t think that’s right with you, but >> So then, and I know it’s hard to keep bouncing back and forth, but um and and one of the reasons we’re here is we just keep telling ourselves Chris just does not fit the mold.

Chris does not >> like this just it just blows us away what happened, right? And so we will do a little bit of bouncing back and forth and that’s really just to get to know you a little bit better.

We never really got that chance, did we? >> Twice.

>> Yeah.

Two once.

>> Yeah.

>> Probably like three.

Well, you remember three or four times probably.

>> So then with Do you call her Nikki or Nicole? >> I call her Nikki.

>> Okay.

>> There’s so many Nikki and Nicole’s in this.

>> Right.

I got confused.

>> So we’ll call her Nikki.

>> So then with Nikki, was it different? >> It just seemed like I was more in control.

It seemed like and that never happened.

Like she’d actually like asked me like like my opinion on a lot of things and just like what I wanted to do and just kind of like okay new wasn’t it? >> Very new.

>> That’s fascinating to me.

And so did it feel more like an equal partnership or seemed like it.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

So then point eight was date night.

Would you guys talk about it? Would you ask to go somewhere? Would she say I want to go somewhere? Was it two I you know the first time we went out it was to a movie over at the orchard 144th over there and I asked her like yeah you want to go see this movie and like yeah I’m like okay cool and we just we got there it was sold out you know normally probably just have you know just wait 2 hours like just go home but not she just wanted to walk around just talk okay >> oh wow >> so that was that was different and you know I think she wanted to go to the car museum Shelby museum in Boulder.

I never been there.

And I was >> That was right up your alley.

>> I was like, that was awesome.

Just walk around cars for like an hour or so.

And then, you know, drag race in Vandermir.

>> Okay.

Haven’t been to a drag race since 2008.

That was in Charlotte.

>> Okay.

Like drag strip over there.

This like the NH fun car stuff.

like me and my dad used to grow up and just go there like all the time >> and then like uh went to camping in uh Stand Dunes National Park and I had never I’d never been camping.

I always wanted to do it and thought it was she done it like countless times.

>> Oh, really? Okay.

>> She’s outdoorsy.

>> Yes.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

She she I guess she every time like she needed to clear her head, she’d just go by herself and just go somewhere else.

>> Yeah.

But she’s a completely new type of uh person in relationship.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Um what were you thinking this whole time? >> Like in the back of my head I was just telling myself, “What are you doing?” Like, you know, every time, you know, I’d open up my phone, I could see pictures like of my wife and my kids and just like, “What am I doing?” And then like every time I was with her, it seemed like didn’t think it seemed like it was like like a blinder that was in my face.

>> Oh.

And it just like every time I look back on it like you know like I have pictures of my wife and kids and myself and like every night you know or every morning every night you know I just you know talk to him you know say like like I have like this book uh I used to read for Cece and I I remember that book.

So I read that to to him like every night and like there’s some scripture and stuff that I read to him.

So, I just try to, you know, just try to think back.

I wish none of this ever happened.

I just like I wish that blinder wasn’t on my head right in my eyes.

That would have seen what was going on.

Like, you know, I was having everybody say, “Oh, you’re just out there having fun while your kids, you know, or kids and wife are on vacation.

” I’m just like, “No, just it wasn’t like that.

” But it seemed like that’s what it looked like when you know when you’re going, you know, you’re going to camping, you’re going to drag race, going all that other stuff that you have fun doing, but you’re with somebody else.

It’s not your family.

It just didn’t seem right.

You know, with her, it just didn’t seem like I could see that anymore.

I was there at her house pretty much every night.

So, it was like I didn’t have that time at home just to really think about anything cuz literally I didn’t like I was only at home from like when I got home from work, I worked out, I ate dinner, and then I went over her house.

Like I was never I never slept in my house like the whole month of July.

>> Now, talk me through that though.

When you said you went home and then you were at her house, was that while Chan was gone? >> Oh, okay.

So, you weren’t even at your house? You know, this all happened so quickly, didn’t it? >> It It was insane quickly.

Like I like She even told me like she would never in like a normal relationship, she would never have somebody over at her house like more than like a once or twice a week, but she felt like she wanted me over there.

Yeah.

She said she felt comfortable over there.

>> So, it was just like that’s what was different.

Like she wanted me over there.

But I just wish that all that would just go away.

I just wish I almost like I know it’s hard to I know it’s wrong to say I wish I never met somebody but I wish I you know maybe met her at work and then just kept it that way.

>> I think we had a time machine.

>> I don’t think this would happen again cuz some people when this happened you’re like well it wasn’t this time it would have been next time or it would have been the next time.

It just wouldn’t have happened with you, would it? It happens so quickly that Tell me if I’m wrong.

You’re not the type of guy to take control sometimes when you need to.

>> Yeah, it seems like this is what happened.

>> Yeah, I didn’t I didn’t take control of this situation.

I’m just like situation control me, >> right? It just happened.

I get that, man.

I’m I’m somewhat passive myself and it’s like, you know, there’s situations that I’m like, why did I let that keep going? I don’t know why it was like it was like a roller coaster ride that I just kept punching a ticket on and I just never get up.

>> Yeah.

Can we talk about the hardest subject? Um so when we were talking the last time we talked um the last thing we talked about was where the girls were.

>> But we never really got to talk about that night.

That’s what happened.

So, nothing really happened that night.

It was in the morning.

It was, you know, me and she got home like at 2:00 and uh, you know, I felt her get in the bed and I just like everybody didn’t feel I just make sure I looked at my phone at 2:00 and make sure she’s okay.

She’s in there.

And I kind of feel her kind of staring around a little bit.

And uh she I I just had a feeling that she knew like what was going on.

I mean obviously I didn’t use like a like I didn’t gift card, you know, that I got not used my actual credit card and I I kind of just felt like something she knew what was going on.

And she uh she started rubbing her hand on me and we ended up having sex.

But um uh I guess that was more like a test.

Oh, >> I would have thought.

>> Interesting.

Okay.

>> Yeah, because when we talked when I woke up later on in the morning, like, you know, I I pretty much, you know, told her like, you know, I didn’t think it was going to work anymore.

>> And she was like, “What happened? What was last night?” You know, >> I figured that that’s the test after I’ve gone through everything in my head.

That makes sense.

And she just told me, you know, like to get off of her.

And she’s like, I knew some I knew there was somebody else.

I knew there was somebody else.

I knew there was somebody else.

I couldn’t bring it.

I couldn’t just say, “Yes, there is somebody else.

” But then she said, “Never going to see the kids again.

Never going to see them again.

Get off me.

Don’t hurt.

” And then is that what she said? That was good.

Like when I climbed in bed, that was pretty much like on top.

Pretty much like triing her how to do it.

Okay.

She thought I was going to like, you know, you know, hurt her or her her baby or something because she knew that like, you know, something that happened.

She thought I was just trying to, you know, just check out or something.

And that’s when I know it’s hard, but do you mind if we talk just a tiny bit deeper about that? So, she comes home.

Uh, you know, she touches and you guys have sex.

It seems like she’s doing her test, which I understand.

Sounds like you do, too.

I’m sure like, you know, Nikki or or something Cole Atinson or Cassie probably told her, you know, that’s what I was thinking, right? They talked about it during that whole weekend.

>> More than likely, that’s my parents told me there was like a going through like text messages.

It’s like all like pretty much they all kind of just told her with somebody else type of deal.

>> Yeah.

And she spent a lot of time with the gals.

That’s what they did probably all weekend is talk about it, give her advice.

I think that’s what we found, right? >> Yeah.

>> Okay.

So, she comes home.

Uh you guys have sex and then did you fall asleep between then and going to work? >> Yes.

>> Okay.

So, then at some point, does she wake you up or did he wake you up for work? talking a little more.

>> Oh, okay.

And you’re going to work out, >> but then that’s when she started talking wanted to talk more.

She was pretty bad.

>> Yeah, she I mean it was I I already kind of knew that using that credit card.

It was kind of It was >> Was that intentional? >> Yeah.

>> I had no other way to do it.

Oh, >> I like you know I I used like cuz I got the Narco gift cards from like you know you know doing good stuff at work and stuff like that and >> I using them all.

>> Oh was was part of me was like a screw it whatever I don’t care I’m using this card.

>> Part of me just want to say Nikki can you pay for this? But >> I just I don’t know.

>> Yeah.

>> Even I think um my attorney said she even knows I used a different card like a blue card.

know maybe she thought, you know, like I felt comfortable enough to use normal bank account or something.

But, you know, I told her I was going to Rocky.

I told you I told you I was.

>> Yeah.

>> It was just like, you know, >> even it felt like, you know, like looking back at everything like just like reading the scripture more and more now, I can see like, you know, God told like gave me opportunities to get after it.

Like even my friend Jeremy Lynstrom, he even invited me because like it was his daughter that came and watched the kids on Saturday, that Saturday night and he was like, “Hey, you said we’re going to Rocky game.

You want to go to New Bronco game, watch the Arizona Cardinal?” Like in my mind it was like, you know, go just Yeah.

Just just say, “Hey, I I can’t I can’t find a babysitter.

Bye.

” >> Thank you.

>> Yeah.

And maybe that would have been like, you know, you know, like life switch just like goes different directions.

That was kind of like my last like opportunity to kind of get out.

It seems like I wish I would have just said, “Yeah, let’s go.

” >> Yeah.

I think that would have just put me on a different trajectory.

>> So then Shannan, did she actually say you’re never going to see the kids again? >> She said that seen me before.

>> Yeah.

kind of hard to hear.

Yeah, cuz she said to me before she went to Arizona cuz like I wasn’t really sleeping in the bedroom.

I was sleeping on the couch or in the basement bed or something and like she had slammed the door.

Never going to see the kids again or something like that.

>> Did she get fiery like that? >> Only once in our entire relationship I ever seen her left that way.

>> Yeah.

And that was the a time before or was that on the night that it happened? >> No, it was uh right back in North Carolina.

Oh, it was one it was just like one of those just it was just a fiery parchment that I never like I never raised my voice to her or anything and like you know I like I just got mad and I slammed the door and she’s like I’m like should have slam the door.

>> Was that when you were in North Carolina that last week? >> No, it was like >> previous to that.

>> This is like 2010 2011.

It was like early early >> in her old house with four kids.

>> Yes.

>> Were you dating or were you married at that point? dating.

>> Oh, >> yeah.

It was just like I I don’t remember what it was about.

I think some I think some girl maybe text me like from my past or something and like I was just like this and she was like, you know, don’t have that happen again.

And I’m just like, you have friends, right? >> They’re females.

Like I don’t even talk to this woman anymore.

>> Right.

>> It was just like that.

>> Nope.

>> Was she fiery? Did she have that Italian blood that her mom has? >> Good lord.

Yes.

Was she always like that or or was she uh did she snap at things? >> If she wouldn’t snap at me, but you could tell like, you know, something >> something really irked her a little bit.

>> It would come out >> zero to 100 type thing or what? >> Yeah.

Zero.

Yeah.

200.

>> Oh, interesting.

>> She’s she’s she gets acclimated about something.

She’s like, “All right, it’s going to happen.

” >> Well, that’s why she was probably so successful at Thrive, right? >> Oh, yeah.

like she had done a couple other like direct sales business, but this one was just like it was different.

>> Why? >> This one like um cuz I think she had done like uh origami owl and like something called like u it works and then like um other other couple other things like some bags and stuff like stuff like that.

the supplement stuff it just because it worked her me like okay I can kind of like use this as like all right this is what’s doing for us >> and then like after a little while like she could see how like people are above her how it was helping them and then it was just like trickle down effect was like a good system about like you know commission wise and everything and everything was just she could use all the business IQ she has from running those cell phone shops and from the dirty soft custom shops and all that.

I mean, she she is minded.

Yeah.

She knows how to do a county book like in the back of her hand.

So, it all just like fell into place with all that.

>> So So then on that night, was it just a new type of fight? >> Never had or what happened? >> Yeah, it was totally different type of fight.

It was, you know, it was just felt like, I don’t know, it’s more anger than than anything else.

Like there was emotion to it at first and then it just felt like it was just anger.

It was just like, you know, like like there was no love there.

It was kind of like we were saying, what she was saying.

It was just like it’s almost like we knew like something was combating at at each other.

We didn’t know like it was it wasn’t ourselves >> really.

>> Anger from you or anger from her? I think it was more anger from me and more like desperation from her to cuz she wanted to fix it.

>> She knew.

She knew something was right.

Like you know like when the whole thing with my parents happened with the somebody like my parents called Nutgate.

>> What happened? >> Nutgate.

>> What’s that? The peanut the peanut bowl or whatnot.

>> Oh with the her family.

>> Yeah.

>> Pistachio ice cream or whatever.

>> Yeah.

They call it nut.

I haven’t heard that.

>> I haven’t heard that either.

>> I guess that’s what people are calling it.

>> But uh that was like another out like, you know, maybe I could have just like stopped everything like just kind of concentrated on hoping like whatever happened there cuz Shannon had a story, my mom had a story like whatever happened.

I probably asked my 10-year-old nephew probably tell me what actually happened.

>> Well, they both have their feelings for good reasons and they both didn’t see it the other person’s way.

>> Yeah.

And like maybe I because I could I didn’t talk to my parents from then on until like August 6th.

And like you know my dad took that whole week off.

>> You didn’t talk to your parents from then on? >> Yeah.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Yeah.

Cuz like Shan was like, “Do not talk to them.

Do not call them.

Do not do anything.

” >> Is that what she said? >> Yeah.

And um the uh Cece’s birthday was the 17th, but I think the actual birthday party was like a couple days after >> in August.

July.

>> July.

Yeah.

And um like my my mom or my dad was going to go, but then there was like a post on Facebook about, you know, allergies and stuff like that.

She hadn’t made my dad was like, “No, I just can’t can’t do it anymore.

” Just like cuz he he perceived that as her taking a shot type thing.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

She always says she never, you know, put those posts directed at anybody, but she she had a method.

>> If you read them, you know who she was talking about.

>> She had a method to the madness and you can see it.

>> Mhm.

But um it’s I wish I could have just took more time just to fix that >> because like I was like I wanted my parents to be involved like since you know like the whole wedding thing and then up to that it was like you know my mom my sister were always like you know combating with Shan combating with them.

My dad was always cool like he’s just like me just like you know go with the flow like I just want everybody to get along type deals man.

>> I love your dad.

>> Oh he’s the best >> isn’t he? I loved your dad.

>> I’m sorry.

Keep going.

That’s um I just wish I could have like when we were in uh we were at the beach in August like my dad was supposed to take the whole week off just so we could see the kids and like see me and like grab a cookout at my sister’s house or something and then but we just pretty much spent 5 days at the beach and Chan like booked it.

like you know I mean it’s I don’t want to say like punishment for them not to see the kids but like I wanted them to see it see him just I wish I could I fixed it all fixed all that I even like when I was at the beach I told Shan that it was more like what was going on was more of like I feel like you know my dad’s my hero I feel like I’ve lost like something in my life I haven’t talked to him for two weeks >> I haven’t been see to see the kids for two weeks you know on FaceTime or anything And I wanted them to be able to have that relationship again.

She was pretty much gung-ho.

Like she tried to kill my daughter like giving her pink.

I was like I don’t think she gave to him.

That was that her stance is that your mom >> put that put something in front of CC >> like to kill her or just >> No, just just like like she she thinks that allergies and like the state of the page is like people think oh you’re fine it’s made up you’ll be fine you’ll just have a rash you’ll be fine I’ve seen CC you know like the first time well I seen a picture when he had a cash the first time that wasn’t good and then she had kiwi the second time and then same thing happened And um I know it’s real.

>> So you know it’s serious.

Yeah.

>> Yeah.

It’s not like it wasn’t like her throat like closed up, but she broke out in this full body rash.

It looked really crazy looking and luckily like you know nothing with her throat like happened.

But um >> So did that make you angry to at your mom for doing that? >> Yeah.

I mean I just like you just got I told her you need to think.

You need to like you know pay attention.

Just because another kid can have something doesn’t mean another kid can have something.

Because like when we were at that birthday party at Jeremy’s that Sunday, you know, they had this cake there.

Like Bella Bella wanted it so bad.

I’m like can’t get that because she can’t have it.

She was like, you know, okay.

And all the other kids are like they can’t have the cake.

You know, like I just kind of took them off and gave them some like like a one of those frozen pops or something.

But, >> you know, it’s just like she had to learn that just because one kid have something and there’s another kid that can’t have it for a legitimate reason.

Like, you know, she couldn’t have done it.

But, you know, that’s the kind of talk I had with her stand and called me.

I think it was maybe like middle of July or something when she told me all this happened.

>> That’s when I called my mom and talked to them for a while and then they’re just like, you know, they just couldn’t deal with her anymore and just kind of like, you know, they like flipped out.

My nephew told Bella to go hide behind the curtain because I don’t think I’m always going to let you come over here again or something like that.

>> So it got heated.

>> Oh, they were It was bad.

>> Really? >> Yeah.

They It was It was like a last straw between them, I think.

>> Like in the same room or over the phone? >> No, they were at >> They were And so they were my mom’s house.

Yeah, cuz CeCe and Bella and my niece and nephew were there.

>> Okay.

>> How did Shenan find out about the ice cream thing? cuz uh Chanel was there and um I guess they were all sitting uh on on this couch.

It was kind of like a U and my niece went into the kitchen and she knew where the ice cream was.

Been there and she knew where the ice cream was been there.

She >> So it’s not like your mom gave it to her like she got her own she went in the freezer, got it, went out and sat beside CeCe and started eating.

So but like it’s just a matter of like CeCe could go like that.

I don’t I don’t know what would happen if she just got it on her hand, >> right? >> But like I know on like the prick test on on the back >> like Well, >> so were they staying there at your parents house during that time? Cuz >> Yeah, it was um so they would go from my >> uh from Sandy and Frank’s house for like a few days or five days and go to my mom and dad’s house for a couple days back and forth.

>> Okay.

So it happened during that time when they were there.

Yeah.

Okay.

And >> so there was so many things that happened, weren’t there, that just were little tiny ingredients to this recipe.

>> Yeah.

Nothing like >> That’s nuts, Chris.

I mean, it’s just so many things just didn’t go your way.

>> Everything was like like somebody was throwing a pot and it was just exactly what it was like.

So then I know I keep bringing it up.

Can you walk me through the just the last few minutes before Shen and I? >> It was pretty much just I gotten dressed for work and then like we started talking.

>> Did she come to you? >> No, I was I was just right there in bed.

>> Yeah.

So, I was just like I got my blue shirt on.

I’m not ready to go.

>> I was ready to go.

>> Was she asleep or did did you have to wake her up to finish your conversation or >> wake her up cuz like she she she on like 2:00.

So, she was she pretty much out of it, but I never knew like if like if her plane got delayed.

Someone always told me like she just like sat around with the cold and just like talked for a while and then came home or something.

I’m not sure if that was it was somebody.

>> Yeah.

>> But uh yeah, when she came home and everything, but yeah, like I I woke her up to talk to her.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Yeah.

And is that because it was just eating at your brain? >> Yeah.

Like I I knew like, you know, something like that something just felt right with me.

So I know like she knew.

I just I just think she I just felt like maybe like maybe the kids weren’t going to be there when I got home that day.

>> Oh, interesting.

Now, um I don’t mean to offend, but I have to ask, is that really the truth? Okay.

>> I really felt like there was they weren’t going to be there when I got home.

>> Oh.

like she would take them somewhere.

>> No, I just I just I just felt like either maybe I wouldn’t go home.

Maybe they weren’t going to be there or I wouldn’t be allowed in type of thing.

>> I think I saw some text messages where Shenia talked about um that she would take the kids to another state or something because she couldn’t wouldn’t be able to afford to live in Colorado or something.

Did she say that kind of stuff to you or >> what did she say about that? She said she couldn’t afford to live in Colorado by on her own and that I told her like well try I mean she pretty much makes the same amount I do.

>> Yeah.

>> But uh she said she wouldn’t she wouldn’t want to try just because you know Colorado just price living there was a lot higher than North Carolina.

And just so just so I’m clear, you thought maybe she was she in your mind you thought maybe she would take the kids somewhere else or like lock you out of the house or >> or just like you know I wouldn’t want to make a scene like you know trying to like pound on the door trying to get in or anything like that but >> I just felt like you know that that was what I did on Sunday you know was kind like Saturday night was kind of like the last draw kind of like going out with somebody and usually have to open account card and just like not trying not at all.

So, walk me through it though because she comes home, she touches you, you guys have sex, you fall asleep, then you wake up for work, all natural, all, you know, a normal day’s work type thing.

>> What was it that made you think, I just can’t do this anymore.

I have to talk to her.

>> It was eating away at me.

Like, I knew like something that I did like I know like when I was with Nikki, it was, you know, different.

Like, I wasn’t even like in the realm of I’m a dad.

I’m a husband type thing.

>> Oh, >> and then like like I like like I was saying when I’m never at home like sleeping in my own bed like I have no like concept of that anymore.

>> Interesting.

>> So in your mind and heart you can moved on.

like it was it just it kind of felt like if I wasn’t at home like I didn’t think about it almost cuz like if I wasn’t sleeping on my own but like I think there was one at one point like Nikki had gone to the mountains with her friends for like a few days like end of June first part of July and then like you know that part you know obviously obviously I was home but like from that whole month of July on it was like I was never home >> like I never had all those reminders around me ever had, you know, like every time my wife would call me, I would be at N.

>> Oh, while she was in North Carolina.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> And I would like, you know, walk outside, talk to her, like when I was next to the car or something like that.

>> I would never be at home looking like have all these pictures around me just being in the same bed, you know, seeing my kids beds, seeing everything that that we know for the last six years.

And so did you just want to once and for all get it out in the open? >> I I just wanted to just tell her how I was feeling at that point in time.

Like I didn’t feel like me and her were compatible anymore.

Honestly, it didn’t feel like that cuz what was going on with Nikki? It just it was new.

It was new.

>> Right.

Absolutely.

>> Anything that’s new always feels better than the old.

>> You were probably bitten by the love bug.

>> Yeah.

How a lot of things about it.

Yeah, it was just like I never felt that.

I mean, even like with new relationships in the past, like it always felt different like you know the first couple weeks and then you know, but it just with someone with Nikki felt different.

I don’t know what it was.

Maybe it was just like you said like you know I was more in control and like it was more of like maybe more of me coming out because then always said like it always seemed I was more myself around other people like you know her cousin Cody like she Cody lived or came out visited us for a little bit while we were in Colorado for a little while and Cody always talk about like call him Chris is so funny Chris like Sharon would always like you like that with It’s like maybe I always felt nervous around you.

>> There’s only so much oxygen in the room, right? I say this to some people with dominant personalities.

>> Mhm.

>> You know, >> I just always felt nervous.

I always felt like I was, you know, I never could actually just, you know, be myself.

>> Nikki, I was myself like all the time.

It was just different.

Well, and it seems as though, and again, hard to talk about, and you tell me if I’m wrong, but it also seems uh is it accurate to say that sexually you were able to say, “Nikki, this is what I would like.

This is what I’m into.

” Blah, blah, blah.

Maybe not what you have.

>> No, Nikki just wanted I mean, she wanted what she wanted.

She wanted to do it pretty much all the time.

I was just like, “Okay, that’s probably me.

” >> Okay.

And it was like like hey sometimes it happens sometimes it didn’t but that wasn’t that wasn’t the case as far as that it was like sex or what but it was just me I was just rolling myself I could like you know just not think about what I was going to say or plan what I was going to say or not you know say something stupid or something but a little bit of freedom.

>> Can I ask you something about that morning that you had sex with Shenan? Did you feel at all like maybe you were kind of cheating on Nikki by doing that? >> I felt strange.

I felt like, you know, the first time I looked at Nikki, I felt weird first time.

Like, and then the last time I was with Shan, I felt totally strange.

I was just like I I didn’t know who I was.

I didn’t know who I had become.

I didn’t I felt like I become people I see on TV.

>> And that did not feel right with me.

Like I just I didn’t I didn’t know what had happened to me.

So, Nikki even asked me like, “Are you have you done this before? Have you ever straight away?” I’m like, “I’ve never even thought about it.

” It’s like, “What’s what’s different?” It’s like like guess it’s just you that’s different cuz I’ve just never actually like like I’ve seen girls smile at me before.

Never done anything about it with her.

It was just like it’s like she had a leash on me and she tugged me away.

As soon as she walked, I’m like the heck’s going on.

>> So, >> well, and Tammy brings up a very good point.

I wonder if that last time with Shenan having sex had a somewhat of a role in you thinking like a trigger.

>> I got to do something.

I gotta say something.

We got to have a talk.

Something’s got to change.

Is that accurate? >> Yeah.

Just it felt like it was like maybe like a trigger point or something like like you hit the push button on a bomb, it just blows up, right? Something in my head was just like something just like something was hurting just like I had to say something.

>> Okay.

So then exactly what did you say and what happened? >> So when I grew up and just like we just gota just got to talk just like I told her I don’t feel compatible.

I don’t feel like this is going to work.

I just know I don’t want to like can we cancel a trip to Aspen and she had booked a trip that week >> to go to some like mystery fourstar luxury hotel or something.

>> Just the two of you or the whole family? >> Just me and her.

>> Okay.

and she had a man up there.

Couldn’t watch the kids that week that weekend or something.

>> Okay.

>> And um I was just like, “Can we cancel that? Can we like do something like from what I remember, I even said, can we move to Brighton just to get away from like this house?” Oh, but like I’m not sure if that was like like in the beginning or the end of part of the conversation or whatnot.

That conversation was so many different ways.

Like they it had gone from like staying together to just like all the above.

>> Okay.

So, this is half an hour.

An hour or what? >> Definitely not more than half an hour.

I don’t know.

>> Okay.

>> I think.

>> Are you crying? Is she crying? >> It’s back and forth.

It’s like, you know, she’s she’s got, you know, mascara.

She didn’t wash her face when she got home.

She had makeup on still, so mascara is running all over.

stuff like that.

Yeah, it was and nothing nothing about that convers I just wish I could take all the back just to be just the the whole nick thing back everything but like when did it turn as far as that conversation this at the end when I was telling her like I told her I didn’t love her anymore that’s what happened what happened she told me to get off of her and then I put my hand okay >> did you I think she said something like that you were hurting the baby or something.

>> That was before that cuz like when I was straddling her, it was kind of like around her waist type deal.

>> Why did you get on her like that? >> I just wouldn’t got off and got on the bed.

That’s just why I got on.

>> Is that so she would listen to you? >> I felt I mean she could probably listen to me just laying beside her.

But I got on top of her.

And every time I think about it, I’m just like, did I know I was going to do that before I got on top of her? I don’t know.

>> Really? That’s an interesting thought, Chris.

>> Mhm.

>> You don’t know if you knew.

>> Just like the whole everything that happened that morning.

I just don’t I don’t know.

Like like I try to go back in my head.

I’m just like I didn’t want to do this, but I did it.

Everything just kind of like >> felt like you had to.

It just felt like it was I don’t even want to say it felt like I had to.

It just felt like there was already something in my mind that wasn’t planned that was going to do it and I woke up that morning it was going to happen and I had no control of it.

>> You never thought about it before.

>> It was just like I don’t want like like you like in the sentencing hearing that prosecutor said it takes two to four minutes something like that to happen.

Like why why couldn’t I just let go? I didn’t.

>> That’s interesting.

>> Okay.

>> Was it feeling like it was in motion and you just couldn’t stop it? >> Yeah.

It was just like >> I don’t even want to know what what she saw when she looked back at me.

>> Honestly, >> did you look at her? What was she doing? >> She wasn’t fighting.

>> Why do you think she wasn’t fighting? >> Maybe she was praying.

Maybe she was just I read read the Bible.

It said, you know, like, you know, uh he or the scripture says, “Don’t uh uh forgive these people for they do not know what they do.

” >> Um maybe she was saying that.

I don’t know what she was saying in her head, but she you know, like like when you guys told me like take off your shirt and check for defensive wounds and like you know, there wasn’t going to be any.

She didn’t fight.

I don’t know why.

So, she didn’t grab Could she grab your arms or were her arms pinned down or >> I don’t not that I remember.

I don’t think so.

I don’t think like I moved to where my knees were around her arms or anything, but it just kind of like when I got on top of her, we we started talking, it was that was it.

It’s kind of like in my head or like in the back of my head that was going to happen and just like at the end of the conversation it was just like that’s what happened.

>> I just wish I could have let go.

>> Did it seem like it was that long? Two to four minutes.

How long did it seem for you? >> Almost kind of felt like it was felt like it was longer almost cuz it felt like time was standing still.

It’s kind of like I just saw my life just disappearing before my eyes, but I just like I couldn’t let go.

It was like somebody else like like if you picture somebody else around you holding your hands, holding you to keep you from not not letting go.

Some point there was a statement about rage.

Do you feel like you’re in a rage at that point? The only way I can describe it honestly like a snap.

I mean I know I guess my attorney had said like some you know you know strangulation is more of like a I don’t know passionate type thing.

I’m just like I don’t know how that could be passionate.

>> It’s just intimate cuz you’re right in there >> using your own hands.

It’s a lot different than someone standing across the room and you shooting them or something like that.

So, >> I just felt like somebody was like behind you just like I just couldn’t let go.

>> It’s interesting to me cuz there was a lot of things in your life that were like that, right? Where you’re just like maybe felt out of control or maybe felt like I don’t know why I couldn’t take a step back or you know like even when you said well your buddy was like let’s go to the football game.

You wanted to say yes.

I wanted to like I never been I haven’t been to a football game since North Carolina.

So I was just like, “Yeah, sure.

” Like I wanted to say that.

>> Yeah.

>> I wanted just text, hey, you know, here fell through.

Can let’s go.

So then what? after, you know, Shen was once once I was once she was gone, it was just like I I didn’t know what what was going on.

It’s like it was like a traumatic I don’t know what you call traumatic event type and everything and like I was shaking.

I didn’t know what had happened.

I didn’t I didn’t know what to do.

I didn’t know what I had done.

I still wasn’t in that right state of mind.

I don’t think like like I was in control of what I could think or what I could do at that point in time.

Like most people say like, “Well, just call 911 when I was like, unless you’re in that situation, you don’t you don’t you don’t know what you would have done.

>> It’s easy to play Monday morning quarterback.

” >> I agree with that.

>> Like, like you said, if somebody shoots somebody, you don’t know what they was going through their mind at that point in time.

>> Mhm.

>> You don’t know what you could have done.

>> So, what happened next? Is that what happened when Bill came in? what she said.

>> Did she hear something? Is that what she >> Oh, I think.

>> Okay.

>> Tell me good.

>> And then did that happen with Bella right in that room? >> Not what happened.

She was she walked in as you know she’s talking about she was she was sleeping.

>> Did you take her back to her room? But she ran in that shoot.

Okay.

Chari downstairs.

Back my truck up.

at that point where the girl’s still there.

Okay.

So then Shenan’s in the truck then back to the house.

You got her to buy back in the truck.

Was Bella first or was Cece first? >> And the truck.

>> Yeah.

Uh I’m sorry.

So Shan was first and then Bella was next.

Was Bella alive? where you put it when you guys got in the truck.

Oh, okay.

What happened back up? Okay, this I don’t even want to talk about this part.

Okay, those are my kids, but baby talk to them every night.

Help this.

Okay.

Every time I see pictures, I don’t know how this could have happened.

Being a dad were the best part of my life.

I took it all away.

I think that’s the hardest part for us, Chris, is we see those videos.

We see that love that you had for your girls.

Like it’s obvious to us and even to us we it’s hard for us to understand how a dad who’s given piggyback rides and you know making snacks and watching princess movies and those kinds of things.

Um how you get to that point you know just like I said it was just like something else was controlling me that day and I had no control over what I was like to fight back.

>> Yeah.

Like when that prosecutor said I felt a bit her tongue like repeatedly.

I just I just want to just bang my head up against the wall.

>> So you put Shenan in the truck and then you put the two girls in the truck.

Were they just sitting in their car seats or or I guess they didn’t probably have car seats in your truck, did they? >> No, I was sitting in the back with the like in that that bench seat.

So Shannan was back there too on the floor.

>> What did they say about Shannan being on the floor? >> Mommy.

Okay.

>> What’ you tell him? >> She’ll be fine.

>> Did you have your their stuff with them like their toys and their blankets and stuff? >> They had they had some they had something with them that they carried.

One of them I think had CC and Bell had like a blanket or something with them.

>> Like a pink a pink blanket or >> what about the dog? I think one of them had a dog, right? That talked or dog? >> Yeah, one of them had like a little barking dog.

>> Was that with you too? Do you know? >> I think it was try to It’s harder not like the big blanket, small blanket.

So, I think I saw um on the video that you put a gas can or something in the back of your truck.

Is that right? >> Did you have different plans >> when you put that in there? >> I don’t know what going through my head.

I feel like I maybe I could just get rid of myself at the same time if I was doing all this honestly.

>> Yeah.

>> Did you think about that? >> What’ you think about that? I felt like I deserve to live after what had happened.

Was there any thought to the whole family going away that day to include you >> after everything happened? That’s the definite thought.

>> Yeah.

See, it’s interesting to me.

Um, we had all kind of wondered if there was a point when you were all together and if you were all going to pass together cuz that to me makes sense cuz that’s even though it sounds crazy.

Um, that’s what a family man does, right? >> Family man doesn’t do what he did.

>> No, I know.

I guess what I mean is, um, it seems like you guys were going to be together forever in that way.

Is that what was going through your head? Honestly, I just felt like I didn’t I didn’t deserve to live.

>> Yeah.

>> It was like whatever judgment I was going to come upon myself, you know, I just didn’t deserve to be on this earth anymore.

What happened? >> So, what made you not do that? You think I don’t know if it was just more of like a cuz with the with the site maybe it was just more of like I would have hurt more people than just me and everybody else.

Like I know there was other people out there not like at the site but other people like maybe out in the area.

Like I didn’t want something like on the site to catch fire and blow up and then other people around would get hurt in the same.

>> So you were thinking initially about starting a fire out there or an explosion or something or >> just No, not not for not for that.

Just like maybe I could just take care of myself out of my head.

>> Oh, I guess I mean that’s the only thing you do.

I mean, I don’t have like I don’t have a gun.

I don’t have anything like that.

I like just commit suicide that way.

But >> blow yourself up.

>> I mean, it was just >> I wasn’t thinking.

>> Yeah.

I don’t It was I mean, I don’t have I don’t have weapons.

I don’t have I’ve never hunted before in my life.

I don’t know what I mean, nothing was right that morning.

>> Yeah.

I remember you kept telling me that.

You kept saying, “I didn’t know what I was doing, Tammy.

I didn’t know.

” Like the sheet like, “What were you doing?” Like, “I don’t know what I was doing.

” >> Yeah.

I think you were just like in automatic mode or it seemed like So, did you drive straight out there? >> So, what were you thinking on the way out there? >> I was kind of like what I was doing right now.

I’m just like, you know, nervous, shaking, not knowing like, you know, what’s going to happen.

>> Yeah.

>> Like I know like my life is completely changed.

I don’t know like what’s happening.

Like honestly like I try to picture that that whole ride like it’s like 45 minutes to an hour ride out there and it’s just like couldn’t I have like saved my girl’s life? Couldn’t I have done something? Why did I do that? I don’t know, >> right? >> Like this is my flesh and blood.

This is like what I wanted all my life was to be a dad just to have, you know, kids and they love me.

They, you know, all that.

And it just nothing nothing made sense, >> right? >> Like the oil tank, nothing made sense.

I’m just like the going.

>> Mhm.

So, what happened when you got out there took your head out to a place off to the site? >> Mhm.

>> Then >> what were the girls doing when we were doing that? Just the truck.

Now what happened after that? See you first.

She did have a blanket.

She had a blue blanket.

I yank your blanket.

>> So, was she alive when she went into the oil tank? No.

I put the blanket over it and that’s how she passed.

I put the blanket over.

I didn’t want it.

No.

Sprinkled her right there in the back seat.

>> Okay.

>> What was Bella doing? She beside her.

Did she understand? Did she know what’s wrong? Didn’t say anything.

And then the same for Bella, just without the blanket.

>> With the blanket.

>> Oh, okay.

>> I didn’t look like every time I closed my eyes, I start to hear her saying, “Daddy, no.

” And that was it.

That’s what Bella said.

I hear that every day.

You really Sorry, man.

Sorry doesn’t take anything back that day.

>> I know.

>> Is it possible that in your mind you didn’t want them to suffer throughout their life? Was this like a mercy thing? >> I mean, you can say that like after the fact, but it was just like I don’t You didn’t feel like that during that? >> I just didn’t.

I felt like it was just like an anger with Shenan with everything that I was just taking it out on every bite that was in front of me that morning.

>> Yeah.

I mean, kids growing out with growing up without their parents, they I mean, depending on what grandparents or whatever they whoever they grow up with seemed to be fine, but it was just like it was an anchor thing.

It was just like And what were you so angry at Shenan about? Like if you could pinpoint it.

>> Nothing that nothing that makes anybody to want to do this.

You could be angry at your spouse like your whole life, but you should never done anything like this.

You should never let it get to that point.

But I let it get to a point where I never I mean I never been angry before.

Like this is like the epitome of being angry.

>> Yeah.

>> The epitome of like showing a rage.

The epitome of like losing losing your mind.

And even like some people in here said they like the heck happened snapped.

Like walk away.

Just like you know it’s I don’t see it in my mind how it could have like you know I look outside every day I’m like what could we be doing right now? You know, right now I’d have a 5-year-old, a three-year-old, and one might be a onemon old son, and a beautiful wife.

And just like right now, it’s just me.

I watched that video of you finding out that Shenan was pregnant.

don’t seem excited.

You seem like kind of in shock and yeah like oh [ __ ] >> like it’s already complicated and now this >> well it’s like uh when we had talked about it like a couple weeks I happened like with Bella it was like we almost gave up trying and she bought me like a supercharger for my car and then with CeCe it was like we had to try and try try and then finally but with Nico it was you know once or twice and like two players She’s pregnant.

>> Is that what happened? >> Yes.

>> I just like it was more of like surprise, scared, like wait, what? >> Like we just we just we just talked about this >> like you know people have brought up the fact like oh she she was probably pregnant before like you guys even talked about it.

I’m just like it’s not no like it was insanely fast.

I give it that.

Like that’s the only reason I ever gave that notion like even the moment of thought cuz it was like faster than any other time that she’d gotten pregnant.

>> You just didn’t seem happy like you know what I mean like I haven’t like I don’t remember the video much.

I know she was wearing like a oops we did it again shirt I think and >> I was walking out of my cooler or something and >> I don’t remember like my actual like reaction like watching the video but like I could see I could see her probably see like didn’t seem like he was jumping for joy type thing.

>> Yeah, it didn’t seem like that.

>> Did you watch the one of when I found out about CeCe? >> No.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Is it totally different? >> Yeah, it was.

>> Yeah.

Yeah, it was cuz uh Bella was in the crib and it had an eviction notice on the >> Oh, I think you told me about it.

Yeah, I never saw it though.

>> Yeah, I picked up Bella and spun her around and this time it was just me and Shenan and she was in the kitchen.

I don’t know like I forget what date it was.

Maybe like June 3rd or 5th or 7th.

I’m not sure like what date it was the video, but maybe I already felt guilty about talking to the work.

>> Yeah, >> maybe I maybe that was going through my head.

>> Is that the potential timing? Does that make sense? >> Okay.

>> I don’t remember the video what day the video was, but I knew like I kind of met Nikki on like June 1st.

I knew like the she told me like afterwards.

>> When you say met her, you mean like went on a date with her? >> No.

No, I never went on a date with her until she was in North Carolina.

Oh, okay.

>> Just like flirting stuff.

>> Yeah.

I mean, it was natural flirting back and forth and that was just like I just I knew that like with that video timing I probably just looked like I was like felt guilty for even talking to the girl at work when you probably did, right? >> Yeah.

>> Did you guys fight before you and Chen? I know you talked about like not really raising your voice and stuff.

Was there cuz I want to see didn’t a neighbor talk about them fighting and stuff? >> Yeah, but that was that was embellished and exaggerated and he retracted that.

>> Oh, he ended up doing that.

>> So, >> did you guys ever fight? Did you ever >> was there any domestic violence in your house? Like, >> oh, >> this is strange to us to >> even from her to you.

I mean, >> yeah.

>> She gets mad when she’s pregnant and grabs a knife or >> No, like >> scratches you or smacks you around or nothing.

No, she never like nothing.

Okay.

That’s what makes all this even more hard to understand from my standpoint.

I know from yours, too.

>> Yeah.

Did she ever belittle you at all? Did you ever feel that way? Maybe.

>> Was that Did you Did she ever make you feel like she belittled you or you felt belittled by her? >> I mean, there’s always points like in a in a marriage where like, you know, the dominant person like, you know, takes control of everything, but like >> I was just my whole life I just kind of went with the flow.

Like, yeah.

I never I never like put myself in the center of attention.

I didn’t want to be.

>> Yeah.

>> I just kind of I just wanted to be in the back row.

>> Mhm.

>> So, I mean, if she did belittle me, I couldn’t pick a point pick exact point or time.

>> She never really felt that way.

>> No, I mean I I mean, I always knew I was like, you know, the introvert.

She was the, you know, she took control of most situations like when people came over like, you know, I knew what I role was.

>> Yeah.

>> Like I watch videos of like like cooking, you know, or she’d make like power balls or, you know, or like protein balls or what.

>> Yeah.

>> You just don’t seem like you want to be in those videos.

Like you feel I feel like you were being forced to be in those videos.

And correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s what it seemed like to me.

>> I hated being hated.

I mean, I did it because for her cuz it was for for a business and stuff, but like it was >> I I didn’t I hated just being out >> for everybody to see.

That’s why like the whole like >> the gender reveal thing.

I was just like >> I I didn’t want it to be like some live Facebook video.

I’m just No.

>> Yeah.

>> But like I just I never wanted to be out there.

>> I know.

I’m >> well even when she was cuz we talk about this a lot Tammy and I and Dave even when it was you know I think it was Florida on some level l or thrive thing and she’s like here we are and it’s all expenses paid and >> I was like >> I remember looking at you and thinking like he is not into this video right now.

>> No, you don’t look into any of the videos.

I’ll be honest with you.

>> I wouldn’t be either.

>> Yeah, >> that’s not me.

>> Yeah.

I mean, I remember you talking about like she would even post stuff for you like cuz you’re technically a salesman too of Lavel of Thrive >> cuz like she put me underneath her and that like anything like any of my friends or something like anything I do would help her, >> right? >> So, it was just, you know, I would send her pictures like like should I take a picture with your patch? I’m like, okay, send it to her and then she’d make a post about it.

She would she eventually she was like I need to take more control over like your business and stuff.

I’m just like I don’t know what to talk about, >> right? >> Like if I went up to talk about talk to somebody at the mall or at the pool or somebody about this, I just stumble over my words and just like they’d be like, “Okay, bye.

” >> But no.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

I’m not salesman.

She’s She’s I mean, she could sell everything you’re wearing back to you, right? >> And you wouldn’t even know it.

Like, wait, I just paid for this shirt.

I pay 20 bucks for it.

>> Yeah, it’s Those videos were not me.

I just I did it just just to support her, you know, like she would always say, “Oh, >> could you tell her no? Could you say I don’t want to be in that video or was that an option?” >> Probably not an option.

I mean, it’s like, you know, she would have been like, “What? This is to, you know, help our family.

This is for, you know, to help this and that, you know.

” So, I couldn’t have told her no.

It would just It would have made her mad.

like, “No, I would I wouldn’t start that just cuz it’s for the business.

It’s for the family.

I was just going to try to help out where I can, >> right? >> Did that actually make money?” >> Mhm.

>> So, not only just more sales, but it actually put money in your guys’ pocket.

>> Mhm.

>> She made probably probably in that last year probably as much as I did >> on commissions basically.

I mean, I know that’s a simplified version of it, but >> Yep.

I mean, it’s uh they don’t take taxes out on it.

So, >> Right.

>> So, that that was like the good thing.

And they pay for your car.

>> So, >> they give you an her an allowance or something to buy a car.

>> Y if you’re a certain level, like a 12K or above, they give you car allowance once a month.

Not sure how they how they made money the owners doing that, but they did.

>> Yeah.

Unless they’re just like an insane markup on the product, which I probably guess there is.

>> Probably is.

Yeah.

>> Not sure how much much it cost for them to make it.

>> Yeah.

>> Did you feel like a different person wearing those patches? >> Especially like the the Duo the burn.

I mean, it felt I mean like the Apple watches like if you look on it like when it tells you to exercise.

I was exercising like all day.

My heart rate was like up.

>> Oh.

>> Just from those batches.

>> Was it full of caffeine or what? uh they just have something they had something in them.

I mean I the black label ones the the longer black ones they those had caffeine in them but it never had that effect.

I mean the duo burn ones the ones that are more of like the fat loss type it was I could it felt like I was working out all day even though I wasn’t.

>> Oh were you tired? I mean, I know at some points I I mean, even Nikki said that like, you know, I’d fall asleep on the couch on her couch while I was talking to her and then like pick back up like I was like I never knew I fell asleep, >> which I don’t know if like an insomnia thing or what, but like I was I wasn’t sleeping much.

>> You had a lot going on then.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

Those are the only patches I really felt like a real big difference on just because it felt like felt like I was working out all day.

>> Mhm.

You don’t feel like they changed your personality or anything like that though.

Or do you? >> I don’t.

No, I know.

I just felt different on those than any other batch.

It was felt like I just go longer and longer each day.

>> Mhm.

>> And I’m not sure like if that was probably that was probably a bad thing.

I I don’t think I was probably sleeping more than 3 hours a night.

>> So, would you stay at when Shan was gone, would you stay with Nikki and then go home for like to get ready for work? >> Yeah, I just wake up at like 4 4:30 and go home and get ready for work and leave.

Get ready for work and leave and I just work out when I got back home.

>> Mhm.

What were the conversations with Nikki as far as um at some point you guys were talking about her helping you find an apartment.

So what did you get to talk about as far as your future together? >> That didn’t really happen until like I got back from back from the beach.

So I told her like I you know I lied to her like hey you know like I don’t like I talked to Shan about getting the separation and that talk hadn’t happened yet.

>> No I mean it kind of like not I mean she knew something was going on and things.

I mean, we we weren’t sleeping in the same room.

And then she she you know, she even mentioned the fact like, hey, you know, you know, Colorado is a 50-50 state or something like that.

And okay, I guess she looked it up, but you know, that actual talk might happen.

I was just like, I thought it was going to happen.

>> Yeah.

And so in conversations with Nikki, and I get it.

I mean, you’re telling her like the progress toward the divorce is a little bit more than it was.

>> Mhm.

>> And then so what were you guys planning? >> So it was more like um she’s going to help me find a apartment that was affordable that’s kind of just around like Brighton or maybe supposed to work like 41 or something around there.

That’s kind of like where my area was.

>> Did you talk about moving in with her? >> She she didn’t want that.

>> She didn’t want that.

Would you have done that if she would have been cool with that? >> Uh, I’ve been both since I would have thought it was just, you know, we’d only been really seeing each other like almost like a month or just talking about two months.

That would have been really But she she called her house like her apartment like her I don’t know like her kind of like a shield or kind of like her she had another word for it, but >> like her safe place.

Yeah, like a safe place or something like that.

>> And she like, you know, people like to invade it, but that’s why she always let me come over because she said she felt like it was that was fine, like her dog liked me and everything like she was say, hey, you know, just shouldn’t belong here type thing.

Okay.

>> So, you and Shannon, did you did you and talk about selling the house? At what point did you There was some discussion there with Ann.

Yeah, she had sent an email about to Ann about like how we would go about like selling the house.

Yeah.

>> And I think Ann told her about, you know, get like Ann was always about getting preapproved >> just like, you know, like if you’re going to sell your house, get pre-approved for like another house.

So it’s like, you know, much faster.

>> Yeah.

So you just quickly transition one the other.

When did that happen? Remember? >> I think it was either right before we left.

No, that happened to been like first week of August somewhere around there.

I think she may have contacted it.

>> Okay.

So, the plan was maybe to buy a house.

I think you told me in Brighton.

You think about buying a house in Brighton? >> Yeah.

Just like she liked that uh that Adams 12 school system or something.

So, >> okay.

>> I mean, I think that’s what Brighton is.

>> Yeah.

>> What were you thinking about when you called that the school that day on Monday? >> I I was freaking out.

I didn’t know like like I was thinking in my head like what I had just did what I just done and I didn’t know like it was it was stupid it was stupid to do anything just I mean to call school to call an to call anybody I mean they were right to be you know suspicious about anything cuz I knew I probably sounded eccentric on the phone and out of out of sorts and just acting on I don’t even know what they were thinking.

They heard me.

>> I think they thought I was weird, but I don’t know how you would not sound weird, you know, like you said.

So >> So are you 100% sure the girls were still around and alive when you drove out? Okay.

So, that’s completely accurate.

There’s nothing nothing else about that.

They they got in the truck.

>> Okay.

>> Where did the blanket go? >> See, there probably in the trash can or something, I think.

>> It wasn’t like it was still in my truck.

>> Okay.

We thought we saw some GPS where you would stop by near a construction >> a rolloff dumpster.

Is that true or >> I think Yeah, I think that’s like I dumped my clothes in there.

>> So is that would have been on way back to the house >> my neighborhood? >> Yeah, when officer Kunov was there.

Okay.

>> Was one of those red construction dumpsters? >> More than likely.

>> Okay.

>> Did you pack new clothes? >> How did that work? >> I already have some in there cuz like in case we had like a spill or something you ever get crew oil on you, you don’t >> Yeah.

I like I have like I have like two pairs of boobs.

Uh all kinds of different stuff in there just because like I just one time I had to paint up a spill and I had defrost on and I had like a headache for like two weeks cuz like the crude oil that comes with that.

So I always have something in there.

>> So where did you keep them after you took them off? Like did you just change out there into your new other >> like I dump my clothes that dumpster.

But that wasn’t that on the way back when you were coming like you had already worked the whole day, right? >> I wor I worked like till like 11 or something.

11.

>> Yeah.

So that was back when Well, when >> Nicole Atinson Yeah.

when she was there at the house hitting the doorbell.

That’s when I knew someone else was at the house, >> right? >> Did you think right then like, oh [ __ ] like here we go.

Or what were you thinking of? >> I didn’t even know why she was there.

I was like I didn’t know like maybe maybe she had an appointment or something but she knew how to help.

>> What did you think like that day like what you were going to say? Like what was your plan? Were you just going to go home and be like report to the police that your family’s gone or >> I like once I had no idea what was going to happen like after everything that I mean I don’t even know how I was even acting even normal to people that was around cuz when like Troy and Cody and Chad and Melissa and all them like you know when they showed up on the site I don’t even know how I was even being somewhat coherent what I was saying but apparently they showed So, I didn’t know what was going to happen.

Like I said, this wasn’t like something like some Colonel Minds >> like well thought out.

>> Yeah, it wasn’t enough minute by minute at that point.

>> It was I had no idea what was going on.

>> So, once the girls were were gone, um was it also just a minutebyminute thing as far as the oil tanks? >> Yeah, I didn’t know what what to do.

I mean, I just thinking about an oil tank just makes me much want to fill up.

>> And was that just because it was in front of you and there it was and just presented itself? It wasn’t a a plan for him.

Okay.

Was there any reason why the separate ones? No, it’s like you said, it was like a going up going up the stairs and it just didn’t like what Frank said, it’s like I was trying to separate everybody.

That’s not >> No, >> no, I didn’t want to separate anybody.

>> What was the reason? >> I I can’t even tell you.

It was like, like I said, like something else was control of what I was doing and it was like I was doing something I never thought I would ever do in my life.

Did you think there would be less chance of someone finding them if they were in separate tanks or >> whatever whatever my reasoning was in my head that day wasn’t sound nothing was right >> and you don’t even remember thinking about it.

>> No, it was just like it was like a reaction of something that I wasn’t even thinking about.

Yeah.

>> Can we talk about the trash bags? Do you remember that? >> Oh, with >> there were two.

>> Oh, with Okay.

Yes.

trying to cuz like this she kept I didn’t want like when when I was putting one coher I guess thing I had like I didn’t want the girls looking at Shenan while they were in the back seat.

So what’ you do? >> Put a trash bag on one end and on our feet and on our head so they didn’t have to see.

Okay.

>> And they were just too little to kind of figure out, right? >> Yeah.

They didn’t know.

>> Okay.

I just know like when I was driving up there I mean you know they were just you know sitting there just you know kind of asleep or kind of just like you know holding on to each other laying in each other’s laps you know I didn’t you remember having any thoughts or thinking about why not just putting them all together with >> Shenan it was just happening so fast I had no idea time really have a thought that was my own.

Okay.

>> That wasn’t like that wasn’t like dutifully trying to separate anybody or passing away, trying to keep anybody separate.

I know everything everything you know Frank Sandy and Frankie said, you know, like I I don’t hold it against them.

I mean, they can hate me for they they have a right to hate me for the rest of their lives.

>> They don’t hate you.

>> They don’t.

In fact, while we’re on the subject, I I speak with them weekly and and I told them that we were going to come here and then hopefully would speak with us.

And they told me to tell you, understandably, they’re, you know, they’re devastated.

Uh but they actually said that they they love you.

They still love you.

And and Sandy explained it, you know, he’s he’s our son son-in-law for 8 years.

I can’t just turn that off.

So, they don’t hate you.

They don’t.

>> That’s amazing to hear that.

>> Yeah.

Well, and I can tell you Sandy was was was the one that was most resistant to penalties in this case.

And she said that she told me that from the very beginning, that she didn’t want that.

It’s God’s decision.

it’s not her decision and then she told me that even then.

So it’s not just a one time thing that that she has said it to me.

Um it’s been over the whole course of of the event.

So um that’s probably one of the most honest things someone’s ever told me, you know.

So that’s it’s pretty amazing.

Faith is she’s obviously a believer.

So am I.

I get it.

So I understand it.

>> That’s amazing to hear that.

>> Yeah.

Good people.

I would have thought I would have figured they would have hated me for >> they don’t I mean yeah anybody would think that.

I certainly would have but I have to admit I was surprised really taken back by that but they certainly don’t.

>> What did they say when they knew you were coming to hire you? Um, they just they said they want to know details because they need closure and that’s really all they want and they want to keep it private and I said absolutely that’s you know we’ll talk to them about what you told us and just so they can put it past them because they’re having a hard time dealing with it and trying to get past it all and um and I think that may help just >> closures My parents still think, you know, like I I told them I plead guilty for a reason.

>> Right.

>> Right.

>> And like I told it to him when they had that video video phone thing in Colorado the day before.

Like I plead guilty.

Like I plead guilty for a reason.

Like I didn’t just, you know, I knew other people were watching.

I didn’t just go in like just say anything.

Mhm.

>> Like they seem to take it like Okay.

>> Mhm.

>> What made you do that, Chris? What made you plead guilty? >> I didn’t want anybody else to I didn’t want them to go through this for two or four years.

I didn’t want my attorneys to lie for me for four for two to four years.

Like they I mean, they would have done anything I told them to do.

>> Sure.

>> That’s what they’re I don’t see how they can do that.

Like, you know, that’s what attorneys do.

you know, like they take their defendant and they say like what happened? Okay, we’ll go with that story.

Like I told them everything I just told you guys and it’s just like they just and they got together like well if you know if they ever wanted they ever offered a plea deal, would you ever want to like just plead guilty to I’m like yeah I mean if we can end this end it like I was like in September I told them that >> really? Yeah, they like but you know it was way too early and prosecution was still doing their >> Yeah, >> this guy used to grabbing evidence and all kind of stuff and that wasn’t even all the way on the table.

So I think it was in like around Halloween.

>> I think that’s when uh the prosecution went to Frank and Sandy and Frankie’s house and talking like if we can end this would you be open to that? And that’s when like you know like the whole death penalty and everything all that right conversation happened >> and um I guess they were surprised that it it would just be over.

>> Yeah.

>> And >> we were all in shock.

I’m not going to lie.

>> Yeah.

It was like >> it’s like we were going 100 miles an hour and then we just hit a brick wall.

Like that’s what it felt like to all of us.

So I mean obviously you had more time to >> Yeah.

I mean contemplate it.

>> Yeah.

I was I mean I told I told John and Kate and Sophia and everybody is if we can just stop this and like I know it’s you know everybody’s telling me to fight fight fight this you know there’s no like there’s like everybody’s saying there’s like not enough evidence to such this this and that and I’m just like no I’m just this needs to end like I don’t want people to have to because for Frank and everybody to have to fly back to Colorado every single time and get reminded of this like I’m not sure it’s never going to go away but to actually have to come and talk about have other people talk about it have you know have all three of you get on the witness on the witness stand and say you know what they saw what they’ve seen what what they they heard on tapes and everything like that it’s just like I don’t want people to relive that over and over and over again for for years like if I could just in this for everybody and then like there’s any closure at all, they could, you know, it could start then instead of like 2022, but know like, you know, everything just like I know it would only get worse for everybody.

>> So, did it have anything to do with you not having the death penalty? >> No.

Like, I mean, honestly, like when I was sitting in that cell, I felt like I should have died.

I mean, I I was listening to everybody telling me like, “Hey, if you do this and this, you can hang yourself in that cell.

you could do this and that and you >> they were like telling you stuff.

>> Yeah, you could drown yourself in the toilet if you wanted to fill your toilet bowl up or something like that.

It was they’ve been there a bunch of times and like I was at one point I was listening to them.

>> Mhm.

>> And I was just like, you know, you know, I just felt like maybe I could maybe there’s a different purpose for me somewhere.

Maybe it’s here.

I don’t know.

Like I prayed to God every day that he would move me away from Colorado, like move me away from like the DOC there because I just knew like they were saying there was a hit on me.

They said if I was going to a DOC in Colorado like I’d last a week and I’d be dead because like the gangs and all that kind of stuff.

So like I just felt like God moved me here for a reason and I hopefully I can help people that way.

But like I didn’t want my family I didn’t want to answer all our friends like you know having to go through that cuz after a while I knew it was like this stuff was everywhere and I knew like all her thrive friends everybody that was just like it would just it would just broke but that hole in their heart was a little bit bigger every time.

I didn’t want that.

I knew it would have gotten worse.

I didn’t want I didn’t want it to get any worse than it already was.

Did you ever think about boy, you know, it could be very believable what I told them, it could be very believable that Shenan did, you know, end the girls.

So maybe if I tried to convince people that, maybe if I fought with my attorneys on that, maybe I could lessen it somehow.

Did you ever think about that? >> Honestly, I never even thought about the story until you guys mentioned it.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

>> I wondered.

I never even thought about till you guys mentioned it.

>> And what did you think about it once it got mentioned >> just like I just went with it.

I didn’t like, you know, I knew my dad was out there.

I knew it was like, you know, I knew they would probably believe it because, you know, my mom and my sister just never really liked Shenan.

I knew that like you know I mean through all this like I got letters from some of my friends even said you know you know when we went over to your house we could see you know more dominant personality and more like you know hey you know you’re always helping with the kids and everything just you know you’re a great dad and everything we could see you know couple things that I never saw or you know whatot even my best friend Mark even say you know there’s always you know something you know I didn’t really get it with Shannan I was like nobody ever told me any of this stuff but okay but Yeah, it was I never thought about that story and you know that’s what my attorneys were going with.

>> Yeah.

>> And then like I think it was probably the second week I told them like what had really happened.

>> What did they say after that? >> They were quiet.

They were writing it down.

They were they said they wouldn’t judge me.

So I told them I told them everything that happened.

And they, you know, appreciated like I guess, you know, most of the time, you know, their defendant or their, you know, defendants don’t like tell them actually what happened.

>> No, >> they just, you know, tell them, “All right, get get me off.

Get me out of here.

” And this is what happened.

But I told them what happened.

I I didn’t want them going if this was going to go like anywhere in court.

I didn’t want them to be under a false pretense and like get surprised.

So, I know like there was probably things that you guys probably knew that I if I if I just kept if I lied to them and just tell this is what happened that it would have like made them look you know foolish and say you know they appreciated me telling me telling them that.

So now they they would be prepared and that’s when they were saying like you know if if it was ever you know if we ever went to them the prosecution say if we could end this would I be open to it? I’m like if it could end it >> I know there was like um wasn’t her phone found on the couch or between the couch cushions like did you plant all that stuff? >> I just threw it in there.

>> You just threw it in there.

>> Why why did you do that? >> I don’t know what was going on that morning.

Like even like you know her watch, her phone like I you know that was actually like if id planned this I would probably just take it out to the field or something you know.

>> What about her ring and stuff? What were you thinking about that? >> It’s like you know maybe she wanted maybe she actually really wanted a divorce.

Maybe she didn’t want to fix it.

She put there on the counter.

>> She took it off or did you take it off? >> I took it off.

>> Okay.

Oh.

So that would look like she was saying I want a divorce.

I’m leaving it here when I’m taking off.

I see.

>> So the phone and her watch and the couch.

Was that that morning before you left to go to service? Okay.

>> That’s I think u Nicole’s son found it or something.

>> Yeah.

>> What other things did you do that maybe we even missed? >> Watch.

Yeah.

I think I threw the therapy books you wanted me to read in the trash.

That was that morning? >> Probably.

I think so.

>> Were you trying to make it look like she threw it in the trash? >> I don’t I don’t know.

I just like I I just didn’t think it Nothing was ever going to work again.

So, just I didn’t know what was going on.

>> Did you go down to the basement? I thought the basement door open.

>> Yeah, the door is open.

But yeah, so there was a lot of movement, you know.

I think it was around 4:26 or something.

and the garage door opening, the basement door opening, and then of course the living room sensors and all.

Do you remember >> what you were doing all during that time >> other than you had a lot of steps? I’ll just say that.

>> Okay.

>> So, like the basement, I’m not sure.

I mean, only thing I really have down there is my workout, my the bench press.

>> Do you remember going down there for anything or opening that door for anything? Did you think about, well, maybe I’ll take her out that way or >> is it a walk out basement? No, >> it wasn’t at your house.

Okay.

>> It’s like a garden level basement.

So, >> I don’t remember.

I’m don’t think it worked out that morning.

>> Like, were you packing your lunch in the kitchen? Like, did you have to do all that normal stuff? Okay.

>> Yeah, I definitely packed my lunch and everything.

Did all that.

I don’t I don’t remember about the basement.

[Music] Unless I just worked out that morning.

I just don’t remember.

I don’t think I did.

>> So, one of the more >> Unless there was a trash bag down there that >> you got trash bags from there.

>> Maybe maybe there wasn’t any in the garage.

I went down there and got one.

>> Do you normally carry a roll of trash bags in your truck? >> No.

>> So, there was a roll in your truck.

>> There was.

Yeah.

>> Maybe I just grabbed it and brought it with me.

>> That would have been kept in the basement.

maybe or >> basement or the garage.

>> The garage.

>> I’m sorry.

What were you saying, Graham? >> Um, one of the more kind of poignant or tender moments in all of this was seeing you with your dad when he came in.

What was it like when you picked him up at the airport? >> It was It was very strange.

It was It was kind of like I almost knew this probably the last time I’d ever see him on the outside.

>> In my head, I knew that.

>> Yeah.

>> What’ you guys talk about? >> Honestly, like he just wanted to talk about sports.

He just wanted he just like, you know, >> he he’s always kind of like, you know, distance himself from like a problem type thing.

like you know when like if there’s ever an issue or anything like that he always want to talk about like just bring up like when I would try to get him to quit smoking like all the time like that’s after like I graduated high school and whatnot he would >> Are you talking about cigarettes? >> Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> And uh he would always like just change stuff like oh you know what happened in the race uh football or something.

I mean, he he just never wanted to like, you know, he said, “Okay, yeah, I’ll get to it.

” And it was boom, something else.

And, you know, I just kind of felt like it was kind of like that, you know, like he he asked maybe asked like a few questions like, you know, do you know where they’re at? And do do you think, you know, think you know where they’re at or anything like that? I just, you know, oh, and then like start talking about just want to talk about sports and just like normal normal things and just kind of I’m not sure if he maybe knew anything, you know, maybe he kind of figured out something maybe happened and just wanted to talk to me as as a son.

>> Is it possible he saw that you were in a stressful situation and wanted to do what he always did, make things comfortable? >> I think that was a good way to put it.

I bet you picked up a lot of that for him.

>> Yeah, because in stressful situations like I I mean the gray hair didn’t show it, but like I I try not to be in stress, but you know it’s like you know I worked on cars there’s a lot of stress because it’s always you know it’s on commission you know you get paid what you do not by showing up.

So, you know, Van Darker was a little less stressful because, you know, I got paid just to be there.

>> But, you know, >> was your dad’s marriage like yours and Shannan’s marriage as far as like your dad was the more passive one and your mom was more >> always the more aggressive one? >> Was she like Shenan in a way? I mean, were you attracted to Shenan cuz she was kind of like how your mom and dad’s relationship was or >> It was like, you know, it it almost mirrored like her mom and dad’s relationship, honestly, cuz her dad’s like my dad cuz they’re both like kind of calm, cool, clever, right? >> I could see that.

Yeah.

>> And her mom is very >> Sandy rules that roof.

>> Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Very.

And it’s just like I kind of related it to that.

It’s like her mom always said like she she always told Shenan that she would marry somebody that was kind of like her dad and I felt like I was kind of like her dad.

Mhm.

>> I mean, I wasn’t like, you know, I couldn’t build a lot of things.

He could, but you know, our personalities were kind of like, you know, I was always, you know, I think he really liked me the first time he met me because like I was um helping helping Shan with this uh she had got this car from the dealership that she was work that she worked at and she was driving around and felt like, you know, the wheels about to fall off and uh I pulled over where her dad was and I was I got her jacked it up and I was like, you know, trying to fix everything.

He said like any other guy she’d ever dated would have just like stood by and watched me do it.

So I think that’s when he really like kind of kind of like me.

>> Yeah.

>> Just like I was I was always want to help people not to not to hurt anybody.

[Music] >> Well, and you helped her all through her lupus and you’re at the colonoscopy and you’re jacking up the car.

>> Yeah.

I mean, anytime she had an issue with like car at the dirty south customs, like I would just out to work, see what I could do with it, you know? I would, you know, do whatever I could to help.

>> Yeah.

Well, and I think one of the reasons Frank and Sandy work so well is cuz Frank let Sandy be Sandy.

>> Yeah.

>> And they probably both saw in you that you let Shannab be Shen.

>> Yeah.

I just like, you know, I didn’t I didn’t try to change her, right? >> Like I just let her be, you know, who she is.

>> Yeah.

>> She’s like, you know, she’s young hope.

She’s >> she knows what she wants.

She’s going to go get it.

Yeah.

>> And I didn’t say, “Hey, you know, you can’t do that.

” And that’s what her first husband did.

>> Yeah.

>> She he controlled everything.

He >> he tried to be Sandy and it didn’t work.

And she and she turned into almost like me.

She was like she just kind of like like played back and just kind of like let him do what he was doing.

And I think she learned after that that she just be herself.

And with me, she could definitely be herself.

>> Yeah.

So that’s how it worked.

>> So do you think your dad had any inkling? Cuz I’m trying to remember the timing.

He showed up when you were still walking around.

You weren’t in any trouble yet when Ronnie came in.

>> Yeah, I was I had met with you the night before like a three or four hours and then I was at Nick and Amanda’s house.

>> Okay.

Out there and that’s when I went to go picked him up.

>> Okay.

And you picked him up? It was early in the morning, right? It >> was like 10:30 I think when Sled came in.

>> Okay.

And then so from there I you guys probably drove home and then to the police station.

>> Yep.

>> And the the talks there were no type of confession from you.

>> Okay.

>> No, it was like just he was just going to wait.

>> Told him like you know you was like that barbecue joint down the street and like know it’s good and you know he told me he never left.

>> He didn’t.

I wasn’t lying.

>> Yeah.

>> He was faithful.

He was >> I mean I don’t know how he lasted that long without food.

>> We ended up giving him food.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

>> He, uh, he was great.

Um, and the reason I asked is because when I look back and watching the video, um, now knowing what I know after talking to you today, I can see how genuine he was, but I just didn’t know if you guys had come up with some sort of plan.

Okay.

>> No, we never talked.

Okay.

>> If I had told him anything, he would have probably told me to tell the right way.

>> I think you’re right.

He would have still loved me either way, but he would have told me you need to tell him like right now.

Like, you know, I mean, >> I didn’t think I was going to be there for 14 or however long I was like, you know, I never told him the whole thing that it was a lot further along than than I wanted to be.

>> That’s think about, right? Give me some good advice.

>> Yeah, everybody.

Oh, this is my friend Mark.

>> Oh.

Oh, sorry.

Okay.

>> When I was in San Diego.

>> Oh, I got you.

>> So, you think you told Mark about that? hoping he’d maybe question you about it or >> I was I was I was cuz you know Mark’s my best friend you know I grew up with him since I was like eight n years old >> so like he had been married before and it didn’t work out I guess they were stationed together or something like over in Korea and uh I was I should have just kind of just came out with like the whole whole story like you know like I just told him there was this girl at work that you know I’ve been talking to but you know I’m just guess distancing myself from her, but that wasn’t the case.

>> I was just letting it, >> you know, exponentially get worse, >> right? >> And if I told him like, hey, you know, >> Yeah.

>> He would have been like, whoa, man.

Like, all right, take a step back and look.

>> Yeah.

>> And like, don’t like fall into that trap being you’re going to be alone for five weeks.

And there’s there’s times I wish, you know, like maybe Shan didn’t have to go away for five weeks.

Maybe we all just went for one week.

Yeah, nothing could have ever happened.

So, I mean, five weeks alone, that’s the only reason really that was even almost allowed to happen.

>> There are quite a few people who would tell us and who do tell us, you need to look into Nikki Moore, Nikki Ginger, all the way from the extreme end of things being Nikki’s the one who ordered the hit.

>> She was there hiding in the basement, >> you know.

So the the extreme is she’s the one who told Chris to do it.

She’s the real problem.

All the way that’s the extreme side.

And then all the way to well there were these texts where she was infatuated.

She was in love.

She was saying how good Chris was in the sack and maybe we should look at her more.

You know what would you say to those people? >> No.

She she had her moments where I had to talk her like off a ledge kind of deal.

>> What does that mean? It’s like I guess after the fact there was like videos of her that she was like recording herself because she was like bipolar or something.

I never knew that.

But there it’s like and she would get worked up about nothing.

She would just like she came to my house once cuz I think it was like July July 4th I I didn’t have to work that day.

So I didn’t like get up at like you know 4:00 and go home.

And Shenan called me like 10 times in a row and I didn’t hear it cuz I was sleeping.

I was just like and she was pissed.

Was pissed >> and like I called her outside like where are you at? Like what like I was like I didn’t have to work today.

It’s like you called me at like you know 5:30.

I was like the kids want to talk to you at 7:30.

like like I’m asleep and she’s like she just like you know screw you like you know like I don’t know where you’re at and I went back inside I got to go and she was just like okay then you come back I’m like probably not.

>> So wait a minute you kind of lost me there.

Were you at Nikki’s place when Shannan called you? >> Yeah.

>> Okay.

And so you were sleeping in her bed? >> Yeah cuz I wasn’t going to work that day because I didn’t have to that day.

the first holidays I ever had off and you know she she was pissed and you know kind of pissed Nikki off too that I just that I left but I think that’s when she uh I’d call Nikki later and she was like you know she kind of realized that you know she’d always be like you know the second second she said second pill >> and cuz that’s how I would come back that day cuz you know I don’t want to be anywhere else when Janette calls she was already pissed so >> it was stuff like that where she would really like she would go she would she said she would go on like uh websites and look at like will a relationship work with somebody like will a mistress work will a mistress turn into a relationship.

>> That’s what Nikki was looking up.

>> Yeah.

>> She would tell you that or you told me that.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

She said that she would go on websites and look at stuff like that just to I was like why do you even look at stuff like that? She’s like I just want to see what other people have experienced.

But like, so that confuses me though because I thought earlier you were saying she thought you were heading toward a divorce.

So why was she looking at herself? >> This was this was later on.

>> Oh, >> like you know in August like first week of August when I told her like you know I had that talk with her about separation.

>> Uhhuh.

>> That’s when like she started looking at like apartment stuff but like during our July >> relationship type thing there.

>> Oh, I see.

That’s when she was looking up like, you know, you know, it will actually work.

>> And she told she told her friend Britney about it, I guess, and Britney told her not to do it, but she said she’d already made her decision.

>> Okay.

>> And so, are those people absolutely wrong about Nikki? She wasn’t asking you to get rid of your family? >> No.

>> Are you sure? >> Okay.

And no part of any of this was because she put it in your head or asked you to or >> No, never.

I mean, this whole this whole relationship contributed to it.

Sure.

But she never it never she didn’t want kids.

>> I mean, was it ever like I wish he didn’t have kids.

I want to have, you know, kids of my own with you.

Like, >> she wants I mean, she never knew if she wanted to have kids, but she said that, you know, at one point she said I could give you a son.

>> What? Did she know that Shenan was pregnant with a boy? >> No.

>> Did she know Shenan was pregnant? No.

>> And why is that? You just didn’t tell her.

>> I didn’t tell her.

Like it cuz we had met.

>> But she didn’t put that on Facebook.

>> That’s That’s >> like how did she not see that? >> I don’t know.

Maybe she didn’t.

She just wait for me to tell her or she put it out of her head.

>> Can I ask you a question? A lot of people think you named Nico after Nikki.

>> What was that about? >> Nico was actually a name that Shenan liked.

>> Okay.

Shinn thought of that one.

>> Yeah, I actually I wanted to spell it like N E Ko.

I thought it was like Niko that way, >> but she said N I O and I thought it like sound like Niko or something.

Okay, because Niko is >> that’s is more of like an Italian.

Yeah.

>> So, and likely for you know my middle name, my dad and all that, but like Nico is like that’s a name that she always liked.

>> Okay.

>> Did she name all the kids? She named Bella and Celeste.

>> Yeah, Bella.

cuz Italian means beautiful.

Marie, mom’s middle name.

Celeste is her grandmother’s name.

Catherine’s name.

>> Did you have any input in their names? >> I liked them.

I was like I was like if we have like if we had a third child, you know, I was going to maybe we could have like Lee in the middle name, but you know, like you know, I knew like the girls names, you know, I I love those names.

So that’s cool.

>> Mhm.

Especially like with the you know they have old nicknames for him you know like Bell and Belline and CeCe obviously was good but yeah Nico was okay.

Can we go back to the house on the 13th? So um at one point right when you got back there [ __ ] Rod was there.

Officer [ __ ] Rod and Nicole was there and then you went in the house in there for about a minute or so before you let everybody in.

remember what you were doing in there at that time? >> That was So I went into the garage, >> right? >> And then I ran around and I opened the front door.

>> Yeah.

>> Open the front door for Did everybody come in through the garage or the front door? >> Everybody can see the front door.

>> Yeah.

So I came in I went in through there.

I came in, opened the front door, and I ran upstairs.

I just like like I was looking around.

>> Okay.

Was that that’s after everybody? Did you go around the house at all before you opened the front door? No.

>> No, I didn’t I didn’t run around the house.

I stayed down at the bottom.

bottom floor and then ran open the door.

>> Yeah.

Okay.

>> And I ran upstairs and everybody else and that’s when the cold the cold son was on the phone and I was going acting like I was walking through the house.

>> Yeah.

>> She didn’t have her bra on.

Was that normal that she would sleep in her bra? I don’t know.

>> Every once in a while.

I mean, she just got home from the plane.

She didn’t even take off her her makeup or anything.

Maybe she was just that tired, but normally I don’t know.

>> Did it not come off when you guys had sex? >> I don’t think so.

>> Sometimes she just, you know, she keeps her shirt on and she doesn’t want me to do anything.

Just like she wants what she wants.

She >> what she wanted.

That’s what she wanted.

>> Was it just missionary sex? >> Yep.

And when she when she put her final rest in place, was that just naturally what she was wearing? You didn’t change her or anything like that? Okay.

>> Did you have to see any of that stuff, >> pictures or anything? No, >> I asked not to.

>> Okay.

>> They said I could.

I was like, “No, I don’t want I prayed for those hazmat workers that I’m sure was hazmat, right? I had to >> they’re part of it.

” >> Yeah.

And like >> we were all there.

>> We were all there.

>> I’m sorry.

>> Yeah.

I never wanted to see I was pray to be there.

I I don’t never wanted to know what what the aftermath was.

They they said like, you know, if this ever got ever got like a prelim preliminary hearing that I I would have to see them for an initial prepared >> and not have a reaction, an initial >> Do you feel like your lawyers were fair to you? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

I mean, they were all I mean, they were my only human contact really.

>> Yeah.

>> They they’re kind of like almost like a guidance counselor almost.

>> Yeah.

Did you feel like you were driving the bus though with your decisions you made or >> I was like I you know there’s a lot of things I didn’t really know what was going on behind the scenes like maybe there’s a lot of things they never told me like you know >> um like stuff that came out like afterwards like that whole Nikki Kry article and Denver post and all that kind of stuff they told me like afterwards and everything but it was I always felt like anything I was telling them they were they they’re going to do like the whole taking the plea deal and everything.

I told them that’s what I wanted to do and they you know they they asked me like seems like 100 times are you sure you want to do this? Are you sure? Like once you sign this like I guess like up until sentencing I had the time to like you know back out but like they always even before we walked in court like are you sure? So yeah this is this is it.

Okay.

They they never told me this is what you have to do.

>> Mhm.

They always just said this is your decision.

You know, like if you want to take this farther, we’re you know, King John said he he was he had all kinds of motions written, all kinds of stuff that were like really creative and cuz he never been in something like this before and he was ready to fight.

And I was just like, I didn’t want you to have to do that.

Not for me.

Not for not for something that the story isn’t isn’t true.

cuz there’s no way it would just only go first, >> right? >> For everybody, for all three of you, for everybody that was involved in it.

>> Are you still glad, you did? >> Yeah.

I mean, I never I never thought I’d be in prison the rest of my life.

Like I I don’t want people to have to keep going through this every day of their lives knowing that, you know, there’s a trial hanging over their head or I mean if it ever got that far, I don’t know if but like I didn’t want people to have to relive it every day.

>> Did they have to ever see the pictures? Say that again.

>> Did they have to ever see the pictures? Frankly, San They didn’t see anything.

that.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

We shielded that from them.

That’s what I just didn’t want them to have to see anything or hear anybody talk about what anything [Music] or like you know any anybody about their daughter you know like anybody who like you know they hear what you know some of my friends had a negative you know impact on her from her or like had a description of her that they didn’t that didn’t match you know something like that I didn’t want them to hear that either I didn’t want them like you anybody have to trash her memory.

Like I wanted like them to know like she was, you know, she’s a loving wife.

She’s beautiful.

She always helped everybody else.

All her friends, her biggest friend and everybody.

I just wanted I didn’t I didn’t want anybody to take away what she did.

>> We tried to get you to say that that night.

I know.

But um >> do you remember that? >> I remember.

I just like >> I know you obviously weren’t ready to say that.

>> I I know.

It’s like, you know, like after my dad left, we both came in like, “All right, we got most of the story.

Let’s get to the the true story.

” I’m just like, I just wanted to bang my head against the table.

But in the end, I think you did the right thing.

And even though it’s hard to hear, there’s a lot of people who thank you for what you did.

I think your whole life has been thinking of others except for one brief moment.

You know, I think you really did think of others when you made that choice.

So I personally thank you, right? Because it would have been hard for the three of us to go through >> about this hard and for everyone else about that hard, right? >> Yeah.

It was anybody that was family or friends then, you know, it’s exponentially harder for everybody.

>> Yeah.

I think >> So you haven’t told your parents what happened? You just told them I’m pleading guilty for a reason.

>> I’ve told them like on the phone even because they they’re still >> You should fight it.

you should get >> and they’ve they’ve got letters from like Australia, from England, I mean of like the 35C and Colorado and stuff like you know improper council or something infective council >> infective council and um >> I mean some of the stuff they’ve you know they’ve said about you know the dry patch how it’s not like FDA approved how it can alter somebody’s mind like um uh like it was some kind of condition But there’s someone else they call like CPSD complex uh post-traumatic stress disorder or something like that have been like some people from England have had it.

like uh they’ve been in a emotionally abusive relationship or something.

I mean just like you know some of the some of the little subjects they put in there like yeah I can relate to it but like it doesn’t make up for the fact what happened but like they’ve they’ve got a lot of support from they got a lot of hate mail a lot of phone calls a lot of like you know stuff like that I wish they never happened but they you know they they get some support which is good but on the phone they still think you know there’s a chance I could get out.

>> Yeah.

I mean, you don’t want to ever think your kids going away forever.

Like, >> yeah.

They tell me to fight it.

Like, you know, >> they don’t die every day, but in their on their bad days, >> he’ll get a bad message or a bad letter and then I just kind of revert back.

>> Is it more your mom or your dad? >> My mom, she loses it a lot.

>> Yeah.

on the phone.

My dad’s usually trying to, you know, like, hey, don’t talk about this stuff when you’re on the phone with him because it’s just going to ring to rattle you up and it’s going to make him go back to his cell and he’s going to just kind of think about that all night, >> right? >> And that that’s what happens a lot.

>> Yeah.

>> Would you ever want him to know what you’re telling us today? >> I’d rather just tell them myself.

>> Yeah.

>> Said they’re coming.

I think they’re going to try to make a visit in like May or so.

So they don’t do they still think that should have guilty of >> they still believe that even though I told them I plead guilty for a reason but they think that I was their words like railroaded by >> because they you know they felt like I they they pressured me to do it >> uh >> do you feel like that? >> No.

They they asked me plenty of times this like you know they want they wanted to fight like they were really if I said fight they would have just you know >> put on their gloves.

>> Yep.

Just went in there and did it you know like no I just I can’t have you do that.

>> So Chris you care about others deeply.

I can tell you worry about others.

Um, and I’ve asked you, you know, a bunch of times today that you’re not just telling us that you did it because you feel bad for Shannan’s memory.

You did it.

Okay.

>> I have to say like, you know, after this was all over, you know, people would bring up like, “Oh my gosh, I bet you’re going to find out that Chris, you know, used to torture animals and, you know, all this stuff.

” You can imagine like, you know, hearing that someone’s capable of that.

What have they done in their past? Those kinds of things.

Can you think back to your past at all, like your childhood, and think about any other moments that maybe you felt this same rage? I mean, obviously didn’t do anything like that, but maybe felt that rage and like what would have triggered that or anything like that? >> Not really.

I mean, I was always like somebody that tried to coax people down, not to like if somebody wanted to fight somebody else.

Then I got in a fight like when I was in third grade, but it was like, you know, we ripped each other’s shirt, went away crying, >> you know, it was like stupid.

>> I was just like, why did I why did I do that? And like maybe that was like my only like bad thing I did in school.

>> So, I can’t think of.

>> Did you feel it on the inside whether you didn’t act it out? Like did you feel like like if someone bullied you at school or if someone whatever like would it still be inside you? Like did you feel like that even though you didn’t actually act on it? >> I don’t believe cuz I was always you know I never really talked to many people.

So I never I mean people knew who I was but they didn’t really I mean I never really spoke to many people.

That’s why I never really had a girlfriend in high school.

I mean I was always kind of like spy under the radar.

>> Did you feel like you had low self-esteem? >> I say low self-esteem.

It was just like I didn’t want to be I didn’t want to be part of like a group or a click.

I just like you know I had a couple friends and sat at a lunch table with them and or sat out they call like a fish pond area and you know just chilled out there and I didn’t really want a whole lot of friends just kind of like just close net and I just wasn’t out there like I said people knew who I was but wasn’t matter of like I was popular or anything.

>> Mhm.

Can you attribute that to anything in your childhood? Why you were >> My sister was always the the popular one.

>> She was more like my mom, like more like outgoing and like me and my grandma would always sit outside in middle school waiting for her to come out and pick her up and she’d always be the last one out.

She’d talk to everybody in the hallway.

And my grandmother’s always like, “Where’s she at? Does she know you’re waiting?” But you know, it’s I was just the opposite of her.

>> Mhm.

>> You know, it’s like sometimes you have kids that are like the same and some have opposite.

me and my sister did the opposite.

I was the one I wanted to be >> drew on that one with your guy.

>> Mhm.

>> So, but there was never really like bullying or like I remember nobody ever really came up to me or wanted to fight me or >> never got made fun of.

Never.

>> No, I mean I was I had braces and I had like a bull cut for a while.

I guess could have made big fun.

>> I think most kids did.

>> 80s and 90s were cruel.

as like a Jim Carrey cup that’s pull on your head around.

But yeah, it was I don’t think there was anything that would anything that would be picked up inside me from >> from child.

I know you talked about your dad having an addiction when I was talking to you.

>> That was after I left uh left home.

>> Is that was it cocaine or something or >> it was it was some type of powder? I’m not sure.

I guess it was cocaine.

I guess that’s >> How do you think that affected you? I don’t think it affected me at well it did affect me but it didn’t like take like deep down didn’t like really hurt as much as I thought it would.

It was kind of weird because on my thing that my mom or my sister told me like when they talked to him about it didn’t seem to register like I said like he would change subject and like when I talked about it he eventually immediately changed subject like they found like you know cuts on his like CDs and stuff where he would like you know like separated and stuff like that because he’s at a car dealership.

I mean, find guys that do that kind of stuff all the time, I guess.

But he was just coping with like I never came back home.

And that’s before I met Shenan and it was just >> Did you feel guilty that he’s now using drugs because he never came back home? Like he lost his kid.

>> No, I was just I never really knew why he was doing it after the fact.

I knew it was because he was coping with that, but I never knew why he would actually turn to drugs.

My mom thought he was having an affair because all this money was going somewhere else just for the drugs.

But like I myself, I never used drugs.

So I always try to tell them like, hey, like what’s going on? Like why why do you need to use this? And just like you could using this for a whole lot better better things, you know, just don’t throw your life away.

I mean like cuz you could see in his face like you know it’s like eyes or like everything was getting like you know like the blood through your face and like your skin was getting all loose and like he was losing a lot of weight.

>> Mhm.

>> His nose was bleeding all the time and all kinds of stuff like that.

And I just like hey you know you smoke like every day of your life since you were like 15 or 16.

You’re like you know I can’t get you stop that.

Like I get you stop this right and he he put it away I guess pretty quick after I talked to him about it.

Do you think you were closer to your dad than your mom? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

We we always went to races together and you know he always trained my sports uh play couple school sports, wreck ball, all that kind of stuff, you know.

Mom would come through sometimes.

My dad was always there.

>> Always.

Yeah.

>> Even if I wasn’t playing, he’d just come there just just in case I can’t win in there.

>> A >> So that’s cool.

>> Yeah.

Well, I wondered if they hadn’t visited because they didn’t weren’t ready to visit or if it was a money thing or, you know, like >> the time off.

Yeah.

You like >> visit here? >> Yeah.

Visit here.

>> Well, I just told him like, “Well, we can’t drive in the snow.

” So, you know, I don’t want >> these roads are bad.

>> Yeah.

It’s um I think it’s like an hour from Madison airport, whichever way it is.

I told him like, “Wait till springtime.

” >> Good advice.

>> Yeah.

>> It’s pretty brutal.

It was yesterday.

>> Do they have money to get here? >> They sold my tool box to >> get some money to come out here.

>> Okay.

>> So, yeah.

So, they’ll they’ll come out here like they said April, but I was like, you know, just maybe push it till June.

They said they come somehow blizzard out here in April sometimes.

>> Late spring blizzard.

Yeah.

>> Lake effects.

That’s crazy.

>> Yeah.

And >> how are you how are you doing mentally? I mean the first time I when I first I mean I didn’t know I was coming here obviously.

I mean they just when I was at DRDC >> spooked you up.

>> I was there a week like first day I got there they put me through the ringer like I had like 11 tests to do like like like mental tests like reading math all kind of stuff.

This is where my IQ was and then I just sat there the rest of the week and then Sunday came along and after dinner they said all right strip down and put this on.

Okay.

And then I walked outside and put me in a van.

I’m just like, “Okay.

” I had no idea it was going on.

And then we stopped in Sterling, which really freaked me out.

I was just like, “I don’t want to do this.

” Cuz I heard so many horror stories about that place.

And uh they just stopped to use the bathroom.

And then we kept going >> in the prison.

Do they use the bathroom at the prison? >> Yeah.

It was like at at the Watchtower outside.

>> Oh.

And um we went to Nebraska sheriff’s office there and then another sheriff’s office in Iowa, used the bathroom, eat breakfast, then got here.

I asked him I only talked to him once.

I’m like, “Can you tell me like uh where we’re going?” Like just the destination state.

He’s like, >> “I don’t know.

” So, it was like a It was like one of those like transport vans like where it was like at just the middle where I was sitting there >> and uh I could see out the window and I could see like they would put in an address each time.

Like they had like four sets of addresses to each one they had to go to.

They just would never tell me where we were going to end up.

>> What was what did they say your IQ was? >> I was like 40 35 or something high.

>> Is that high? I don’t even know what >> that’s above average.

>> Yeah, it was it was t me back to high school for real.

I’m like parts of the city on all that stuff.

>> Yeah, it was a lot of it was a lot of word problems, a lot of like uh geometry, a lot of like you know patterns like if this was moved this way and then it was like like a series of them like all right, what is this one going to be? >> Just a lot of a lot of stuff like that.

But like the further further you got along harder it got just like it’s like great.

It was like they give you this little take take that pen and take the little tube out in the middle and that’s where you’re using to fill in the little >> Oh >> little scantron sheets and everything high school again.

>> Do you know how long you’re going to be here? >> Neither do I by the way.

Do you know are you going to get a job? I if uh since I’m staying here or since I’ve got staffed here that you have to work.

>> Oh, what’s your job now? >> I don’t have one yet.

>> Okay.

>> They had to move me out of the accept or eval acceptance and evaluation assessment evaluation process.

>> You still in that phase? >> Okay.

And how long will that take? >> Oh, right now like since I’ve been staffed here, I’m just waiting for them to move you over to a different unit.

>> And are you in uh Jen Pop right now? >> No.

>> No, I’m in a unit.

There’s like 11 or 12 of us on there.

There was like 22 when I first got there, but they’ve been transferred to the other prisons around.

>> And what are the other guys like? >> They’re like they’re fine.

Like the first time like I sat out, ate like a breakfast or lunch, I was I was >> scared.

I was just like this this hasn’t happened like not since you know this never happened.

>> Yeah.

Like like I said, they they locked the hallways down.

I moved to Colorado.

>> Well, I heard that.

Yeah.

>> So, it was like, you know, being next like right like this eating next to somebody.

I was just like, you going to like take a spork and try to stab me or something or what? But it’s totally different here.

I mean, people know who I am, but like they don’t like, you know, run at me or jump at me or like apparently they um the guys that work here, they they know that I guess other maxes are like you lock down like 23 22 hours a day.

>> Oh, so then this isn’t all right place to be >> for like other max for other max guys.

Good.

>> Oh, they said it’s the best max but the worst medium.

Oh, >> because uh if if you’re Max, you’re working.

So, you’re you know, out at yourself working like you know, if you’re a clerk or if you’re in the kitchen or if you’re in the recck area doing something.

>> Okay.

But, uh yeah, they said like if you get stabbed here, it’s it’ll be best for you.

Plus, they say it’s not as like crowdy as some of the others.

>> Yeah, >> that’s pretty intense.

>> Yeah.

So, like I mean I’m I’m going to the GP area.

They just don’t move in.

And you think it’ll be while you’re here? >> Okay.

>> They said like I guess it could take, you know, it takes a while to get moved from max to medium because Colorado was classified as minimum restrictive, >> but with the charges they would have been medium, but here it’s automatically max.

>> And what did the other guys report for? Do you know? Uh they said most guys in here are for like gang [ __ ] and uh sex offenders and mainly people that have 20 years or more.

>> So people who were in for a long time and who would otherwise have a pretty hard time out of jail.

>> Yeah.

>> For whatever they did, whether it be snitching or or >> Yeah.

Like you know >> children or >> Yeah.

Or there’s uh some people from other states here as well.

And um I guess there’s a couple cops here too.

>> Okay.

just, you know, just things happen and they just don’t think it’d be better.

It’d be a lot better if they’re here, not at another prison, you know.

>> Yeah.

>> So, what kind of jobs are available? I mean, >> well, it’s um like they’ll they’ll probably have me in the kitchen more than like that’s where everybody starts out like either >> washing dishes or like you know putting foods on the trays or helping you know pots and pans, something like that, >> right? But they have like libraries.

They have like, you know, that when I one thing I did see out the window when I first there was like a neighborhood that’s right next to the prison.

>> Yeah.

>> I just like that >> same thing.

>> Yeah.

Weird.

>> Cuz like in Colorado seemed like they’re all like out in the middle of nowhere, right? >> Sterling, right? >> Okay.

Easy.

>> Well, um, we might take a little break right now.

I think it’s almost time for you to eat lunch.

>> Yeah.

>> Like 20 minutes.

>> Yeah.

But like the polygraph everything just like >> I look up the time.

I’m like, “Oh, wow.

>> It’s been four hours.

Holy cow.

” >> They might let us come back, too.

>> Okay.

>> There might be a couple more things you want to go over.

Is that something you’re up for? >> Awesome.

>> Okay.

And then the other thing is we might be back in a month and a year and two years if you’re up for it.

Um, now that’s way down the road, but I guess maybe in the back of your mind, just think about that.

And um, I hope so far today’s been all right for you.

>> Yeah, it’s been honestly when I walked in, I was just like, wait, I know.

I know these guys.

>> I looked at you, I’m like like that that’s not sight counselor.

That’s Oh my gosh.

Okay.

>> Yeah, >> they’re Colorado people.

>> That’s past that A&E sergeant.

I was like, all right, my meeting I go not the A&E sergeant.

>> Yeah.

So, um, there’s a possibility we might not make it back today.

I just want to let you know, but we might.

Um, so we really appreciate you talking to us.

>> Thanks for coming.

>> Total took me off guard.

I had no idea that.

>> Yeah.

And again, um, this isn’t it.

The case is over.

It’s closed.

So, that’s not not what today’s about.

We really appreciate it.

You did a lot of things really well.

Really good.

Made a lot of good decisions.

Obviously, we’re here because of just one bad decision, but I think that you’ve taken steps to get past that.

Um, so yeah, we might come back after after lunch.

That’s all right.

That’s fine.

Okay, cool.

Let me go see if I can grab somebody.

>> You guys fly into >> I think I had the better drive.

>> I think you might.

>> Mine was like 50 minutes.

It was like 2 hours.

>> It was snowing.

It’s pretty nasty.

>> Yeah, the wind’s blowing.

>> Not like wind like Colorado then.

>> So, it’s a hell of a lot colder.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, and yeah, the roads aren’t getting cleared like they would get cleared in Colorado.

I think they just have so much >> comes in just Yeah.

>> Colorado just melts within a couple hours here.

Just honestly, I haven’t seen it melt here since >> Well, that’s the thing.

Everyone’s houses are just piled, you know, like, oh, it’s the next snow and they just pile it on top.

So, >> it doesn’t look like anything melts.

>> No, >> which is the problem.

So, >> do you guys go outside for wreck or anything or >> No, not when it’s has to be over 50 degrees.

>> Oh, so you won’t be out for a while.

No, they have like a wreck uh like a little basketball court down the hall from where my unit is.

So, we get there about five days a week for like 40 minutes.

Nice.

>> Good chance to just get out and just run around a little bit.

Just stretch your legs a little bit.

>> Yeah.

>> Any weights or anything you can use? >> Yeah, there’s some weights in there.

We go with another unit and they’re uh it’s the infirmary unit that goes with us and most of them are like in wheelchairs or whatnot.

So, we kind of like I just like let them do >> I don’t want to get like get in their way.

just like let them like they has like the pull downs and the the lats and all that kind of road machine and stuff like that.

So that’s pretty cool.

>> Yeah, but I think they have like a track or something like there you can run around uh once we go outside.

>> Mhm.

>> Colorado they let you go outside.

Like I never went outside but like the DRDC they just said if you want to go outside let you go outside.

That’s cold.

>> Buyer beware.

>> You want to wreck today? like no it’s like 30° outside.

You can go outside if you want.

Okay.

But their their version of rec was like they put you out in a little cage and let you like kind of walk around for a little bit.

>> Yeah.

>> At DRDC.

>> Feels a little different there.

>> Hey, if we don’t want to come back, I just want to let you know I talked to your dad the other day.

Okay.

>> And and just to get your property released to him.

>> Oh, that phone and stuff.

>> Yeah, your phone and and u what else? >> Wallet.

>> Your wallet.

Okay.

>> Yeah.

And we have some other things, too.

So, but I have to wait for the DA to release all that stuff and >> Okay.

>> Red tape crap.

>> Gotcha.

>> We’ll get We’ll send it off to him.

>> Okay.

Awesome.

Thank you.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

I know he wanted my phone just so that there was pictures on there.

>> That’s we said.

Yeah.

>> I think I had that phone since like 2016.

So, there’s a good amount on there.

>> Yeah.

If we don’t make it back today, it’s going to be because of some of their scheduling.

It’s not that we don’t want to talk to you tomorrow.

It’s fine.

There’s more things we can talk about.

>> Okay.

>> But if we don’t make it back, that’s fine.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

It’s a holiday, so I figured they’d be pretty much open.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

So, I didn’t see many people walking through the hallways when they came down here.

Usually there’s a ton >> of visitors or what? >> No, just a ton of people.

Just like workers walking up and down.

>> Seemed pretty sparse.

>> Yeah, it did seem sparse, didn’t it? >> That was one thing I was shocked about when I walked around here.

I was always used to seeing everybody in handcuffs walking around the hallways >> here.

>> That is interesting, man.

I thought the same thing.

I couldn’t tell who was who.

>> Yeah.

It’s like you got >> you see the red tag, that’s like an inmate, but somebody else works here.

>> Oh, >> or like somebody that’s like actual civilian that works here.

>> So then you’re not in shackles and handcuffs that often.

>> I haven’t been since I got here.

>> You’re kidding.

>> Huh? >> I was That’s That’s why I was amazed.

I was like when the guy took me in the hallway I was like anything no just keep walking.

>> Yeah.

>> It’s that’s the that’s my psych saying this isn’t max but you first got here but now it’s like max or something.

>> They just like you know if if you if you want to act up they’ll put you >> use it.

You learn they’ll shackle back.

>> Oh yeah.

They they’ll put you in handcuffs to get to the hole.

>> Yeah.

>> And then they’ll ship you out of here.

>> They have a solitary here.

>> Oh yeah.

They’ll strap you out of the bed.

>> Oh yeah.

can’t move.

>> Yeah.

A reminder of Yeah.

behave, right? >> Yeah.

It’s like don’t you need it don’t pass food.

Don’t pass anything that’s not yours.

>> Otherwise, you’re gonna >> Do you get to buy like commissary and stuff? >> It’s different here.

It’s a It’s like a bubble sheet instead of like Colorado is like a little little touch screen you do.

>> But here it’s like a little scantron.

You send it off to like Missouri.

I mean, it’s it’s the same company, but it’s the it just takes longer to get here.

M >> yeah just >> like what kind of stuff can you buy? >> Uh like ramen soup and peanut butter and uh oatmeal like lemonade mix stuff like that.

I usually just get the the oatmeal and the ramen scoop.

>> Do your parents put money on your books then? >> Yeah.

Not sure how like that restitution stuff’s going to work.

I’m sure like that’ll like what whoever sent me money on the canteen will probably it’ll take a little bit of it too.

>> Oh yeah.

>> Right here.

>> Okay.

>> Yes.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chris.

>> All right.

Thank you.